what info is needed in the living trust to do this ? i got living trust software but what all is needed and where ? iam also wanting to put a sbr in as well , any one with any info or could send me a "sample" that would be great
also can any one point me to where it says a living trust can even be used for this ( is it on the atf web sight or somthing ) that would be vary good as well that what i know the law and can print that out and keep it with my form 4 copies when iam at the range
using a living trust to register a suppressor
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usp_tactical_45
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ArevaloSOCOM
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Use Quicken Willamker 2006
50 bucks, it asks you questions, you answer then hit print.
That's it.
As for a sample copy I doubt anyone will pony up as it's a private documnet.
But I'm sure there are copyies of stadard one "Google : Irrivocable Living Trust".
I'm sure you'll find a few.
As for "where it says it's legal" If you check the "definition section of a Form 4 it says what the definition of a "person" is...........corp,estate, trust.........or living person.........Thus no need to keep anything on you.............the definition is right on the back of the Form 4
Try this link and read the section i speak of under "Form 4" :
http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm
As for the "sample" of a SBR From1 I know there is a pic of one, the Form 1 filled in showing the use of "Trust" to SBR on AR15.com
HERE i got it for ya :
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b ... 942&page=3
The following might help answer some Q's.
Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/07/02SOT
Firearms Trust FAQs
What is a trust:
A Trust is a legal entity and can own both real and personal property in its own name (at least in Florida) and as such is no different than a Corporation holding NFA items. Under the United States Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Federal Firearms Regulations, Part 179 “Machine Guns, Destructive Devices and Certain Other Firearms”, Section 179.11 specifically defines a Person (i.e. someone who is authorized to purchase NFA) to include Trusts as well as Corporations. If someone does not want to deal with signoff or cant get it, the corporate or trust route is the only answer.
Does the Trust require separate tax numbers/returns:
A Revocable Trust does not need a separate tax ID (you use your own SSN) and gains/losses are passed through on the grantor’s taxes and taxed to the grantor
Can I make changes to my Trust:
The trustee has the power to amend or revoke the trust or the power to reach the assets at will.
Will the Trust prevent creditors from reaching my NFA iems:
A Revocable Trust will not generally provide any more protection of the assets from creditors than a owning them individually. I say generally since the assets are held in the name of the trust and not your individual name so a creditor may have trouble finding them. A smart litigator may be able to find and reach the trust assets or at least the proceeds from their sale. An irrevocable trust may offer some protection in this regard. However, I generally am against using an irrevocable trust (except in certain situations where it is necessary i.e to hold life insurance for purposes of avoiding estate tax) simply because it is irrevocable and in the event of a change in circumstances/law/finances/ etc., you cannot make any changes to the trust or reach the assets (i.e you are screwed). That being said, if you set up a corporation just to hold the NFA items, then there is a very good chance that a good litigation attorney may be able to pierce the corporate veil and reach the assets anyway. I don’t advocate the use of the trust for purposes of asset/liability protection. Many of the asset protection schemes I have run across over the years have seemed less that concrete in their protection and some downright shady. If you are worried about asset protection you might want to consider good insurance. I advocate the Trust simply as an alternative to a corporate vehicle for those who want NFA and can’t get LE signoff or don’t want to bother with it, or who want to save money in the long run.
You mentioned saving money, can a Trust save money:
In addition to the set up costs, a Corporation costs $150 per year (the fee for filing the Florida Corporate Annual Report). This fee, which is subject to increase as the state sees fit, must be paid every year to keep the corporation active. This can get expensive in the long run and failure to pay the annual fee will result in the corporation being administratively dissolved. If this happens and the corporation owns NFA items then you have a serious legal problem. Reinstating the dissolved corporation, if possible, would incur a $500.00 filing fee. A Trust has no requirement for annual fees and is not registered with the state, so the savings is a minimum of $150 a year. Here is a good example. I sold a .22 suppressor to a customer for $300.00 He had already set up a corporation (he paid $250.00 to set up the corporation). He has had the suppressor now for 5 years. With the annual fees and set up cost he has paid $1,000.00 and will continue to pay $150 a year as long as he wants to keep the suppressor. A lot of money for a $300 suppressor.
How about Privacy:
A Trust is not registered with the Secretary of State like a corporation. The address of a corporation and its officers names and addresses are available on the internet from the State of Florida Division of Corporations. So if you set up a corp to buy an NFA item and use your home address and keep the item at home, conceiveably someone could look up your name and see the address you use for the corp and figure out where the NFA items are kept. Maybe a longshot, but when dealing with NFA, my belief is you can never be too careful.
What happens to the NFA items in the trust when I die:
The standard trust I prepare provides for the assets to be liquidated by the successor trustee and the proceeds to be distributed to the beneficiary or beneficiaries as the case may be, that you designate. You can provide for the items to be distributed directly to the beneficiaries at your death as well, but there are other considerations that should be discussed with any attorney before completing the trust documents.
Are Transfers for Trusts faster or slower than individual or corporate transfers:
With a transfer to a legal entities (like trusts or corps) there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer of an NFA item so “theoretically” the transfers should go a "little" faster (but I have gotten individual Form 4 transfers sometimes quicker than Form 3s submitted on the same date so who knows what to expect with the ATF)
Which way should I go:
Well review the above and make your own decision. If you already have a corporation that you are using for other business and you have no problems with other partners, liability, corporate creditors, etc., then that may be the way to go. If you don't already have a corp, then depending on your situation and the above matters, a Trust may be the way to go.
50 bucks, it asks you questions, you answer then hit print.
That's it.
As for a sample copy I doubt anyone will pony up as it's a private documnet.
But I'm sure there are copyies of stadard one "Google : Irrivocable Living Trust".
I'm sure you'll find a few.
As for "where it says it's legal" If you check the "definition section of a Form 4 it says what the definition of a "person" is...........corp,estate, trust.........or living person.........Thus no need to keep anything on you.............the definition is right on the back of the Form 4
Try this link and read the section i speak of under "Form 4" :
http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm
As for the "sample" of a SBR From1 I know there is a pic of one, the Form 1 filled in showing the use of "Trust" to SBR on AR15.com
HERE i got it for ya :
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b ... 942&page=3
The following might help answer some Q's.
Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/07/02SOT
Firearms Trust FAQs
What is a trust:
A Trust is a legal entity and can own both real and personal property in its own name (at least in Florida) and as such is no different than a Corporation holding NFA items. Under the United States Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Federal Firearms Regulations, Part 179 “Machine Guns, Destructive Devices and Certain Other Firearms”, Section 179.11 specifically defines a Person (i.e. someone who is authorized to purchase NFA) to include Trusts as well as Corporations. If someone does not want to deal with signoff or cant get it, the corporate or trust route is the only answer.
Does the Trust require separate tax numbers/returns:
A Revocable Trust does not need a separate tax ID (you use your own SSN) and gains/losses are passed through on the grantor’s taxes and taxed to the grantor
Can I make changes to my Trust:
The trustee has the power to amend or revoke the trust or the power to reach the assets at will.
Will the Trust prevent creditors from reaching my NFA iems:
A Revocable Trust will not generally provide any more protection of the assets from creditors than a owning them individually. I say generally since the assets are held in the name of the trust and not your individual name so a creditor may have trouble finding them. A smart litigator may be able to find and reach the trust assets or at least the proceeds from their sale. An irrevocable trust may offer some protection in this regard. However, I generally am against using an irrevocable trust (except in certain situations where it is necessary i.e to hold life insurance for purposes of avoiding estate tax) simply because it is irrevocable and in the event of a change in circumstances/law/finances/ etc., you cannot make any changes to the trust or reach the assets (i.e you are screwed). That being said, if you set up a corporation just to hold the NFA items, then there is a very good chance that a good litigation attorney may be able to pierce the corporate veil and reach the assets anyway. I don’t advocate the use of the trust for purposes of asset/liability protection. Many of the asset protection schemes I have run across over the years have seemed less that concrete in their protection and some downright shady. If you are worried about asset protection you might want to consider good insurance. I advocate the Trust simply as an alternative to a corporate vehicle for those who want NFA and can’t get LE signoff or don’t want to bother with it, or who want to save money in the long run.
You mentioned saving money, can a Trust save money:
In addition to the set up costs, a Corporation costs $150 per year (the fee for filing the Florida Corporate Annual Report). This fee, which is subject to increase as the state sees fit, must be paid every year to keep the corporation active. This can get expensive in the long run and failure to pay the annual fee will result in the corporation being administratively dissolved. If this happens and the corporation owns NFA items then you have a serious legal problem. Reinstating the dissolved corporation, if possible, would incur a $500.00 filing fee. A Trust has no requirement for annual fees and is not registered with the state, so the savings is a minimum of $150 a year. Here is a good example. I sold a .22 suppressor to a customer for $300.00 He had already set up a corporation (he paid $250.00 to set up the corporation). He has had the suppressor now for 5 years. With the annual fees and set up cost he has paid $1,000.00 and will continue to pay $150 a year as long as he wants to keep the suppressor. A lot of money for a $300 suppressor.
How about Privacy:
A Trust is not registered with the Secretary of State like a corporation. The address of a corporation and its officers names and addresses are available on the internet from the State of Florida Division of Corporations. So if you set up a corp to buy an NFA item and use your home address and keep the item at home, conceiveably someone could look up your name and see the address you use for the corp and figure out where the NFA items are kept. Maybe a longshot, but when dealing with NFA, my belief is you can never be too careful.
What happens to the NFA items in the trust when I die:
The standard trust I prepare provides for the assets to be liquidated by the successor trustee and the proceeds to be distributed to the beneficiary or beneficiaries as the case may be, that you designate. You can provide for the items to be distributed directly to the beneficiaries at your death as well, but there are other considerations that should be discussed with any attorney before completing the trust documents.
Are Transfers for Trusts faster or slower than individual or corporate transfers:
With a transfer to a legal entities (like trusts or corps) there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer of an NFA item so “theoretically” the transfers should go a "little" faster (but I have gotten individual Form 4 transfers sometimes quicker than Form 3s submitted on the same date so who knows what to expect with the ATF)
Which way should I go:
Well review the above and make your own decision. If you already have a corporation that you are using for other business and you have no problems with other partners, liability, corporate creditors, etc., then that may be the way to go. If you don't already have a corp, then depending on your situation and the above matters, a Trust may be the way to go.
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usp_tactical_45
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ArevaloSOCOM
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Excellent.usp_tactical_45 wrote:that was every thing i was wanting thanks now let me research it and ill get things on the ball
I'm glad I was able to help.
I am sending my Trust + 2 form 4's + a check for 200 in the mail tomarrow.
It's my first use of the TRUST for a NFA toy.
I'll let ya know how it goes.
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wreckdiver
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chrismartin
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Wouldn't that be a check for $400 for 2 form 4's?ArevaloSOCOM wrote:Excellent.usp_tactical_45 wrote:that was every thing i was wanting thanks now let me research it and ill get things on the ball
I'm glad I was able to help.
I am sending my Trust + 2 form 4's + a check for 200 in the mail tomarrow.
ETA: That said, I just finished up my trust and will be going over it with my wife tonight and sign and notarize it ASAP.
Also, you can get willmaker from www.nolo.com for $40 for download only.
C
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ArevaloSOCOM
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LOL.chrismartin wrote:Wouldn't that be a check for $400 for 2 form 4's?ArevaloSOCOM wrote:Excellent.usp_tactical_45 wrote:that was every thing i was wanting thanks now let me research it and ill get things on the ball
I'm glad I was able to help.
I am sending my Trust + 2 form 4's + a check for 200 in the mail tomarrow.
ETA: That said, I just finished up my trust and will be going over it with my wife tonight and sign and notarize it ASAP.
Also, you can get willmaker from www.nolo.com for $40 for download only.
C
Considering how i wrote it, I see why you'd think that.
I meant to say two copies of a Form 4.
Thus 200.
My bad.
LOL.
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ArevaloSOCOM
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Do it for the children..........LOL.wreckdiver wrote:Thanks. After the run around I'm getting on my CLEO sign-off, I'm about ready to try something different else. I'll give it one more chance, then start forming a trust.
Honestly why bother with CLEO, prints, mugshots and FBI background check.
Avoid all that and get it faster too.
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ArevaloSOCOM
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I agree.WiseOne wrote:i wish i knew i could just print my own trust instead of going through a lawyer like my peers told me toi coulda paid off a form 1 with that money
The only reason i used a lawyer was b/c he was a personnel freind and he had done our previous Trust..............i didn't want this one, strictly for guns , to ever cause problems with my REAL one.
He tied them in nicely using legal mumbo jumbo........
Bascially if i didn't have a Trust already I would have just used Quiken Willmaker.
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Gents,
I have done 10 trust transactions - including form 4's and form 1's in the past few months. Longest wait time has been under five weeks door-to-door. This includes suppressors, SBR's and a DD.
Quicken Willmaker and about an hour of my time to set everything up...had a lawyer look overything which took him all of 15 mins.
It really is this easy.
SCL
I have done 10 trust transactions - including form 4's and form 1's in the past few months. Longest wait time has been under five weeks door-to-door. This includes suppressors, SBR's and a DD.
Quicken Willmaker and about an hour of my time to set everything up...had a lawyer look overything which took him all of 15 mins.
It really is this easy.
SCL
Here is a sample of my trust about a third of the way down on page 13.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b ... 42&page=13
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b ... 42&page=13
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DoctorSolo
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Waitaminute waitaminute.ArevaloSOCOM wrote: Honestly why bother with CLEO, prints, mugshots and FBI background check.
Avoid all that and get it faster too.
I have never heard of this. Basically you set up a Trust that legally owns the toys and you can sidestep the bulk of the NFA process? What's the catch? Why doesn't everyone do this?
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ArevaloSOCOM
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no catch MANY people are doing it.DoctorSolo wrote:Waitaminute waitaminute.ArevaloSOCOM wrote: Honestly why bother with CLEO, prints, mugshots and FBI background check.
Avoid all that and get it faster too.
I have never heard of this. Basically you set up a Trust that legally owns the toys and you can sidestep the bulk of the NFA process? What's the catch? Why doesn't everyone do this?
For some weird reaons some people want to go to their CLEO and want them to "allow" them to won these weapons.
I don't know why........
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usp_tactical_45
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ok ok well iam setting mine up using not quicken willmaker but another will maker software
what i want to know is when i add things to my trust i want to add my evo 45 and an sbr do i need to put the serial numbers and do i have to have a lawyer look over this and is their any yearly tax or any thing on it i live in pa but cannot find no info on these things
other then that ill just print it out and noterize it and iam ready to roll
what i want to know is when i add things to my trust i want to add my evo 45 and an sbr do i need to put the serial numbers and do i have to have a lawyer look over this and is their any yearly tax or any thing on it i live in pa but cannot find no info on these things
other then that ill just print it out and noterize it and iam ready to roll
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ArevaloSOCOM
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If you want to add the serial #'s as "assests" of the Trust go for it, but you don't need to.usp_tactical_45 wrote:ok ok well iam setting mine up using not quicken willmaker but another will maker software
what i want to know is when i add things to my trust i want to add my evo 45 and an sbr do i need to put the serial numbers and do i have to have a lawyer look over this and is their any yearly tax or any thing on it i live in pa but cannot find no info on these things
other then that ill just print it out and noterize it and iam ready to roll
But when you SBR the "trust name" is what goes on the reciever.
Most states don't have any "tax" issues with them..........and a look over from a lawyer can't hurt.
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usp_tactical_45
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