Hydrogen Peroxide & vinegar

General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.

All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, renegade, bakerjw

Louis
Silent Operator
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:11 pm
Location: Pickerington, Ohio

Hydrogen Peroxide & vinegar

Post by Louis » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:14 pm

There has been some talk about using a 50-50 mixture of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar to clean suppressors. So I did a little bit of very unscientific testing. This is very crude. To do it right I would have needed a Mettler scale and drying oven but you can get the jest of the concept with the following. I put a piece of ordinary aluminum foil in the jar with 2oz. of vinegar and 2oz. of hydrogen peroxide from the local CVS. After 5 days I noticed just the slightest bit of cloudyness in the solution.
Image
There was no agressive reaction going on. The aluminum looked shiny and unaffected. When I removed the aluminum, rinsed it off and flatened it this is what I found.
Image
As you can see from the numerous holes there was some corrosion. I then took an old 3/8 oz sinker from my tackle box. The sinker is probably 50 years old and has many layers of Lake Erie corrosion on it. Here is what happened.
Image
The reaction was immediate. Bubbles started forming on the sinker at once. Then a vigorous reaction began. I stopped it in an hour. There was a very heavy layer of lead acetate on the sinker. Very messy. Wear gloves. I didn't. Washed my hands for a half hour afterwards. The sinker was highly etched.
Conclusion: This mixture works great on lead. But avoid long exposures to aluminum. Aluminum reacts with acids. Dilute acetic acid(vinegar)is not a strong acid but it is still an acid. I didn't try it on stainless steel or even Titanium. Stainless steel shoud be ok. But acids do speed up the corrosion of steel. Stainless steel is not corrosion proof it just stains less.

User avatar
YugoRPK
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 6223
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:56 am
Location: South Carolina

Post by YugoRPK » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:17 pm

They use peroxyacetic acid in food industries and breweries to sterilize tanks and fittings. It does not corrode stainless steel.
Putting the laughter in manslaughter

Louis
Silent Operator
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:11 pm
Location: Pickerington, Ohio

Hydrogen Peroxide & vinegar

Post by Louis » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:26 pm

That's what I thought. There are so many types of stainless steel that I could not begin to do this subject justice by just one test. Like I said this was a very crude experiment.

Cortland
Silencertalk Goon Squad
Posts: 1353
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:51 am
Location: Dayton, OH via Norfolk, VA

Post by Cortland » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:43 pm

Groundbreaking ...

btburn
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:47 am
Location: usa

Post by btburn » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:56 pm

Nice to know.

User avatar
chingon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:34 pm

Post by chingon » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:12 pm

Cortland wrote:Groundbreaking ...
:lol:
I always tell the truth, even when I lie

User avatar
Diomed
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:59 am
Location: VA

Post by Diomed » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:48 am

Cortland wrote:Groundbreaking ...
It'll be groundbreaking when there's a longitudinal study done on his exposure.

Nuclear
Silent Operator
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:36 am

Post by Nuclear » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:34 pm

If you saturated the H2O2 & Vinegar solution with an Aluminum salt, the AL corrosion might not occur at all. Also remember, not all AL alloys are the same, just like not all Stainless Steel alloys are the same.

User avatar
sonanth
Elite Member
Posts: 539
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:30 pm
Location: Cajun Country

Post by sonanth » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:33 pm

Nuclear wrote: Also remember, not all AL alloys are the same, just like not all Stainless Steel alloys are the same.
I was going to comment the same way. I'm sure aluminum foil is different from say *insert Al grade* that *insert brand and model* suppressor is made out of.
"Your" does not equal "You're", the contraction for "You are".

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspelling

Louis
Silent Operator
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:11 pm
Location: Pickerington, Ohio

Hydrogen peroxide & vinegar

Post by Louis » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:17 am

Just cleaned my all stainless steel SRT Commanche 22 LR suppressor with 50/50 hydrogen peroxide and vinegar. Soaked it over night. The suppressor was quite dirty. A couple of thousand rounds. Anyway when I took it apart there was no way to get all the crud and lead off by hand. Soaking in hydrogen peroxide and vinegar is the way to go.
Image

User avatar
MCASSgt New River
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 598
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Richlands, NC
Contact:

Post by MCASSgt New River » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:01 pm

Not to hijack...

But, I too did this mixture and had a few baffles get a "PINK" :shock: coating on them...not totally covering the baffles but on a few areas and not very easy to remove...any thoughts?

Note: I placed SWR Spectre & Tactical Innovations Quest baffels in the same solution when this happened.
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America' for an amount of 'up to and including their life.'-That is Honor

hemi
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4165
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:23 pm
Location: Salem, OR

Post by hemi » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:12 pm

MCASgt New River wrote:Not to hijack...

But, I too did this mixture and had a few baffles get a "PINK" :shock: coating on them...not totally covering the baffles but on a few areas and not very easy to remove...any thoughts?

Note: I placed SWR Spectre & Tactical Innovations Quest baffels in the same solution when this happened.
I've ran my Spectre through it several times and have never gotten a pink on the baffles. Threw in my LCD pistons for the Trident in last night, we'll see how those clean.

I've never complained about getting pink either.

User avatar
Wahoo95
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1264
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:04 am
Location: NC

Post by Wahoo95 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:55 pm

Just cleaned my Trident LCD last night with Carb Cleaner and Hoppes #9.
Go Hoos!!!!

Lindenwood
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:30 am

Post by Lindenwood » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:23 pm

What does the H2O2 do?

daddyfreddy
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:54 pm

Post by daddyfreddy » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:14 pm

Wahoo...can you please tell us how your baffles came out?

Louis
Silent Operator
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:11 pm
Location: Pickerington, Ohio

Hydrogen peroxide & vinegar

Post by Louis » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:35 pm

The picture I posted was taken without a flash. I took one with the flash and had too much glare. The baffles in the picture look a little off color but that is the lighting not the metal. The baffles were clean and bright when they came out of the solution. There was, in some areas that had tight corners, some residual dirt. A dry cotton swab with just a minor bit of effort got rid of it.

User avatar
stealthcammo1
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 4:06 am
Location: see sig

Post by stealthcammo1 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:54 pm

peroxide leave a patina on steels and yes even stainless. just because its SS doesn't mean it cant rust. im a welder/fabricator by trade and i have personally used peroxide on lots of difference steels (lawn ornaments) to give them an old look. the pink would be a light amount of rust. carb and non-chlorinated break cleaner would work allot better but can eat paint and coatings quicker than you can wipe it off. if your can disassembles i suggest using one of those two on the baffles.
BP Fabrication

stuck in a communist state

User avatar
pneumagger
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:09 am
Location: N.E. Ohio

Post by pneumagger » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:22 pm

Lindenwood wrote:What does the H2O2 do?
Here is my 2 educated guesses.
I would have to verify whether the gas bubbles are oxygen or hydrogen and what the PH of the active solution is to narrow my guess.

My Guess #1:
Commercial Hydrogen Peroxide (3% H202) and Vinegar (~5% Acetic Acid (CH3COOH)) combine to form Peracetic acid (CH3COO-OH) (PAA henceforth).
The H2O2 donates one oxygen to the acetic acid, becoming water itself and creating peracetic acid as the products.
(x)H2O2 + CH3COOH = CH3COO-OH + H2O + (x-1)H2O2
You can see the H2O2 is in excess in the above equation.

PAA is the desired product because two of these molecules reacts with lead to form lead acetate or Pb(CH3COO)2 + 2(OH-)!
Here is where the bubbles come in... the OH may react with the excess H2O2 to form oxygen and water. (2OH + H2O2 = O2 + 2H2O)
Or there are likely lead oxides that are reduced by the H2O2 forming oxygen and water as well.
As well, H2O2 naturally decomposes into H2O and water given surface area as a catalyst: 2(H2O2) => 2(H2O) + O2

Basically, guess #1 relies on the usage of excess H2O2 as a reducing agent to both free up lead oxides and hydroxide ions produced from the PAA. Both actions along with H2O2 natural decomposition will produce oxygen bubbles.

My Guess #2:
Acetic Acid (CH3COOH), which does not react with H2O2 (is this possible), directly reacts with lead to form lead acetate.
2(CH3COOH) + Pb = Pb(CH3COO)2 + H2 ... The tiny hydrogen bubbles would be visible.
As mentioned before, both natural breakdown and Lead Oxide reduction would be forming H2O + O2 so tiny oxygen bubbles are also seen.

Now you have Oxygen and Hydrogen gas just kind of floating around...
Seems like a bad idea don't it? This is one reason I'm not sure #2 is correct.
Unless the H2 and O2 are joining up on a molecular scale as they rise before reaching the surface explosion risk seems to increase. :shock:
I reject your truths and substitute my own realities

User avatar
pneumagger
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:09 am
Location: N.E. Ohio

Post by pneumagger » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:41 pm

As a side thought:
A 50/50 solution (by weight) of Hydrogen Peroxide (commercial 3%) and Vineger (5% Acetic Acid) gives a mole ration of roughly 1:1.5, respectively. My math may be wrong, someone may want to check that. This would put the acetic acid in excess of the peroxide.

If PAA (guess #1) is the active ingredient attacking the lead, one would want at least a 60/40 ratio of 3% peroxide and 5% vinegar by weight. This would ensure all Acetic acid becomes PAA to do work. Perhaps even a more skewed excess of peroxide to mitigate alkalinity and promote bubbling agitation.

OTOH, if acetic acid is the means of lead removal (guess #2), the solution should bubble without the peroxide producing predominantly hydrogen gas in the container. However, the lead may require a reducer (the H2O2) to free up the Pb for further reaction. In such case molar input would be dependent on the amount of lead (lead-oxide) present to reduce. I would think an H2O2 excess would be desired here as well with the PH dictating when to add more vinegar if needed.
I reject your truths and substitute my own realities

User avatar
Wahoo95
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1264
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:04 am
Location: NC

Post by Wahoo95 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:49 pm

daddyfreddy wrote:Wahoo...can you please tell us how your baffles came out?
Never removed/cleaned my baffles. I used the carb cleaner to clean my LCD and 3 Lug mounts. I then sprayed em down with Rem-Oil, replaced the White Lithium Grease and reassembled.
Go Hoos!!!!

User avatar
ick
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4617
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:17 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Post by ick » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:11 pm

Getting ready to clean my Gemtech G5 in my home made PVC pipe containers. Did that before with WD40.

I have been shooting a lot of sub-sonic 22lr through it and noticed a lot of fowling including some lead powder. As I read here apparently... as long as there is no aluminum..... I can use this solution of Vinegar and Hydrogen Peroxide. I understand that I should NOT BREATHE THE FUMES.

I called Gemtech today (208) 939-7222 and they verified that my Gemtech G5 does not have aluminum parts. A buddy of mine has a Gemtech Tundra and this solution SHOULD NOT be used. Apparently the Tundra has aluminum parts. The chemical reaction dissolves the lead... but it ALSO dissolves aluminum... as stated above.

I will report my results. I sure wish the G5 wasn't welded. I would rather take the thing appart and skip this soaking stuff.....
-----
Ick

User avatar
arrowshot
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 994
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:10 pm
Location: Alabama

Post by arrowshot » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:38 pm

What would be the effect of cleaning a sealed suppressor such as the AAC 762-SD with this solution. Granted, there should not be much lead fouling but is this a good idea or not to remove any carbon buildup or other fouling? Same for a suppressor such as the AAC Evo 9. The 762-SD is inconel but not quite sure what the materials are in the Evo 9 (6061-T6, 7075-T6, & 17-4PH - aluminum???).
“The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” Thomas Jefferson
"Sic semper tyrannis"

User avatar
jbabb
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:46 pm
Location: Missouri City, TX

Post by jbabb » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:51 pm

Im on the verge of calling Doug, but does anyone know if an SRT "Professional" Integral expansion chamber can be dipped?

User avatar
ick
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4617
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:17 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Post by ick » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:41 am

Finished the first soak, about 6 hours. Solution was very blue. From reaction of solution with lead?
-----
Ick

User avatar
Diomed
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:59 am
Location: VA

Post by Diomed » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:44 am

AggieRotorHead wrote:Im on the verge of calling Doug, but does anyone know if an SRT "Professional" Integral expansion chamber can be dipped?
I wouldn't. Thar's aluminum in that thar can!

Post Reply