.35 Remington as a whisper cartridge

[jlwilliams]

Looking at what's out there for suppressed rifles and cartridges. The 35 rem looks like it would be a great candidate for a suppressed rifle cartridge, but I'm not seeing any. Am I missing something?

As I understand it; the 300 whisper works well because it has a small case capacity, small bore (so small hole in the end of the can), and lots of projectile availability. Downside being that you almost have to hand load. You can buy some ammo, but it's not exactly common at your local bait&tackle. The 44mag is popular, but you have some limitations (it's a great pistol cartridge, but it's a pistol cartridge) Big hole at the end, but you can get full boat loads or subsonic specials about anywhere. There are plenty of other suppressed rifle rounds, but for now I'll mention those because they represent two ends of the spectrum. Small bore specialty rifle cartridge, and big pistol caliber.

The 35 rem has a small case, and a medium bore. You can get factory loads, not as readily as you can get 30-30 but it's not as hard to get as the 300 whisper. The projectiles are almost all hunting type soft points. Another draw back to the 300 whisper is the bullets not expanding at low speeds. 35 is bigger, and like I said, the projos are generally made for damaging medium sized animals.

I understand that the 300 whisper is a great set up in the AR type rifles, but those aren't the only suppressed rifles around by a long shot. The 35 rem was originaly introduced in semi auto rifles and is still made in some bolt actions, so it wouldn't be too big a jump to see newer designs adapted to a well understood cartridge. It just seems to me that the 35 would work well and use a lot of existing hardware. You could probably use existing heavy duty 9mm baffle designs, just more of them and more volume.

Like the 300 whisper, you could have the quiet rifle with the option of a mag full of full powered super sonic ammo. Advantages over the 300 would be factory ammo and brass, and a bigger bullet. Add the 100 years of loading wisdom, available guns, so forth.

If I'm right, I would expect that some one else had seen this long before me. I tried searching this board and found doodly squat for 35 remingtom chatter. So, am I barking up an imaginary tree here?

[redtazdog]

None of the rifle bullets made for the 35 rem will expand at
sub speeds.
I know this because I tested many rifle bullets with my TC in 35 rem at sub speeds.
The 357 mag works better but they are light bullets.

[Artful]

Well first trick is to find a fast twist barrel to use with long heavy 35 cal proj's. Typical factory is 1:16 so I don't know how well it would do with a long say 250 to 300 grain bullet.

[RAMPTESTER]

What about 35 Whelen? You could get a HEAVY bullet in that case, plus find Remington 700 bolt rifles galore for threading. Use your 9mm can for subsonic work.

[redtazdog]

35 Remington, .356 Winchester, .358 Winchester, .35 Whelen, .350 Remington Magnum and .358 Norma Magnum all shoot the same
rifle bullets and none of them will expand at subsonic speeds.
Some 9mm cans will hold up to a 38 special and 357mag at
sub speeds but they may come apart with the rifle catridges
if a hi pressure load is used even if subsonic.
9mm cans are made of aluminum, rifle cans are made of
steel to hold up to hi pressures like rifle cartridges

[Davo5o]

What about 35 Whelen? You could get a HEAVY bullet in that case, plus find Remington 700 bolt rifles galore for threading. Use your 9mm can for subsonic work.

Done it. Used my .35 whelen mauser and evo40 with 250gr Jaketed soft point round nose.

Want to work up a new load with high volume powder.

[Joker31D]

I have been messing around with them a little bit, I bought a 35rem Marlin 336 because if you want to shoot slow it can be quiet. I have started using bullets intended for 357 maximum, Heavy Hard cast and get deformation but not definitive expansion, going to try to find some older bullets I read about that were developed for indoor steel silhouette shooting, worst case I can pre cut some bullets and encase them in resin for hog hunting, have seen some good ole boys here in florida using melted plastic in molds with lead cores for hogs. Think they were using Kydex scraps that they melted. I asked one of them about the barrel being clogged by plastic, they said they shoot only a few rounds and load copper bullets at the end of the magazine to clean it out, not really the best idea but it works for them I guess. I'd rather not get too into it because I have plenty of other options, BTW there was a 375 whisper.

[hardcase]

I have a Marlin lever action in .35 Rem, iron sights. It has been my go-to gun for deer when walking a lot or in brush from a deer stand. Great, light wt close-in gun.

Anyway, I've thought about having the barrel threaded and getting reloading dyes. Already have two presses. It is now legal to hunt in NC suppressed. I have a Liberty Mystic 9 mm can that is rated for 5.56 and use in my 300 Blackout with full power loads. (Picking nits but there is a difference in the 300 Whisper and the 300 BO) . I may still do this project. Have not because the rifle was a gift from my uncle 40 or so years ago, my first deer slayer. I hate to mess with it.

It might be a bit risky using full power .35 Rem factory loads, even with my Mystic. Availability for factory 35 Rem is 180gr and 200gr bullets.

Sub loads would be OK. Light super-sonic reloads probably OK with cooling between shots. Heat buildup is a factor. Key word is probably.

I've shot reloaded 300 BO supers at 2,100 fps with 150 gr bullets without issue suppressed. You can buy factory 110 gr TTSX bullets in 300 BO rated at 2,400 fps in 300 BO.

With suitable, around 150 gr .35 bullets, I'd feel comfortable shooting suppressed in the 2,000 to 2,100 fps range and get bullet expansion with the right bullet.

[chickenlips]

So, I'm not really familiar with 35rem, but look at cowboy action loads for subsonic use. The issue at the moment with subsonic cowboy era rifle rounds is powder. Right now subsonic powders are a bee-otch to find. So keep that in mind when taking on an odd ball project. Other than that I think those kinda things are way cool. 300 whisper and 300 blackout are the same cartridge the difference lies in the rifles chamber. 300 blk has a longer throat to accomidate bullets with a longer profiled ojive. A project my buddy and I have been working on is 45-70. I threaded my marlin guide gun and put on my friends gemtech 45 submachine gun can. I loaded 400 grain pointed soft cast lead cowboy bpcr bullets from lasercast at 1000fps. It killed a buck mule deer as well as any rifle cartridge I have ever seen. Bullet was not recovered. A bullet that weight at that speed in or around 100 yards does not need to expand in a deer. Killed the deer perfectly with very little meat damage, as most moderate cartridges do. No bloodshot. Gun sounded like a hot loaded 45 acp. Still not supersonic. When I get some extra money I will buy a 45 sub-gun can. I'm going to experiment with 350 grain jacketed bullets. I think I can get similar performance with no lead shedding. 45 sub-gun cans are sealed. Good luck with your project.

[chickenlips]

I realize that 35 rem isn't exactly a cowboy round. More turn of the century, but its chambered in lever guns. IMR Trailboss may be one of the few powders to push a 35 rem bullet subsonic. However I may be wrong. Still seems a difficult task during these current reloading powder shortages. I'm not trying to discourage I'm just mentioning realistic points.

[yondering]

I think I've posted this before, but here's my 35 Remington with a Liberty Mystic mounted in the pic. I also use a form 1 can as well that handles full power loads; I have not and don't plan to run full power 35 Rem through the Mystic.

The 35 Rem is a little large for ideal subsonic use, but with cast bullets it works really well. I'm using around 4gr Bullseye for 140-160gr cast bullets for plinking, and about 6gr Bullseye with my 255gr hollow point for hunting; both loads are very quiet, although the 140gr load is pretty much true Hollywood quiet.

It is true that commercial jacketed .35 cal rifle bullets won't expand subsonic, this is true for .30 cal and most others as well, with pretty much any jacketed bullets from the mainstream manufacturers. The .35 bore though does offer the option of subsonic expanding 38/357 pistol bullets, if you want to use jacketed stuff, and a good variety of cast bullet mold options. The .35 cal is also easier to make a good hollow point cast bullet for than the .30 cal, with cast bullets.

Most 35 Remington rifles have enough twist to stabilize 250gr jacketed bullets, which is the heaviest commonly available weight anyway. My 255gr weighs 270gr in flat point form and stabilizes fine from my Remington 760, as well as in my Remington 700 35 Whelen.

I shortened this to 16".


The 255gr hollow point worked very well on a whitetail this fall.


Full power 35 Rem on left, with Saeco #352. Subsonic 255 HP in center. 35 Whelen AI on the far right with the 255 HP.

[hardcase]

There is a difference in 300 BO vs Whisper. The 300 BO is a SAMMI spec round. The 300 Whisper is a proprietary round. My recollection it is safe to shoot a 300 Whisper in a 300 BO rifle but not visa/versa. The names are not interchangeable.

I've seen headstamp on brass the same but not rifles marked the same except Smith & Wesson's M&P.

In a way, it is kind of like the .223/5.56 thing. Most bolt guns are marked just .223. There are a few that are marked .223/5.56. It has to do with SAMMI specs for the chamber. Some say it is OK to shoot 5.56 in a gun marked .223 but doubt you find manufacture that only has .223 on the gun that would recommend it.

To the point, if someone sold me a 300 BO that in reality was a 300 Whisper, I'd be P$$$ed.

[chickenlips]

Hardcase, You are 100% correct. I touched on that point, but I didn't go into the complete detail. It seems likely that any modern rifle will be chambered with the long throat. I also don't think anybody is making a 300 Whisper except SSK at this point since it's John D. Jones's cartridge. I'm sure some used 300 Whisper bolt guns are out there for sale, but they are probably getting pretty rare by now. The only commercial 300 whisper ammo I know of is the hornady, and it's interchangeable. Just like you said with your 223/556 analogy, I also think it would be a bad idea to load say a 220 grain 300 blk in a 300 whisper as the long bullet would possibly be touching the lands when the bolt is closed. And that can create pressure problems. Probably wouldn't blow up your gun, but one might ruin accuracy and erode the throat. Thanks for expanding on an excellent subject!

[chickenlips]

On the subject of pressure; 223 has a saami spec pressure of 50-55,000psi. And 5.56x45mm is loaded 55-as high as 60,000psi. With a longer bullet from a 556 jammed into the lands of a short throat 223 and no room to jump from the case, combined with higher operating pressure..... well things could get bad. Possibly damaging you or your gun. Now what I can find in my manuals is that commercialy loaded 300 lbk or whisper is loaded about the same pressure in supersonic form. Lower in subsonic form. Now when a long loaded 300 blk doesn't fit in a whisper all bets are off. say like the 220 grain OTM from remmington. I'm certainly no expert, but I am a dedicated hand loader and avid enthousiest. Please correct me if you find something wrong in this post. If I can find anything else that might contribute I will add later.

[chickenlips]

Sorry about changing the subject. your 35 rem is uber cool. I have a ruger 77/357 with a liberty mystic. I will try and post pic when I get a chance.

[hardcase]

Sorry about changing the subject. your 35 rem is uber cool.

Yes, me to, got carried away. Great pictures.

[jlwilliams]

....worst case I can pre cut some bullets and encase them in resin for hog hunting, have seen some good ole boys here in florida using melted plastic in molds with lead cores for hogs. Think they were using Kydex scraps that they melted...

Kind of like a sabot? Can you post some pictures or links? I'm interested to hear more about this.


Yondering, are those bullets blue or is that just my tablet screen? Powder coating?

[hardcase]

Yondering,

I have a lever action Marlin .35 and a Liberty Mystic can. Your pictures are very impressive. Have you ever shot factory rounds through the Mystic? What about super sonic reloads you have used?

[MJF1911]

On the subject of pressure; 223 has a saami spec pressure of 50-55,000psi. And 5.56x45mm is loaded 55-as high as 60,000psi. With a longer bullet from a 556 jammed into the lands of a short throat 223 and no room to jump from the case, combined with higher operating pressure..... well things could get bad. Possibly damaging you or your gun. Now what I can find in my manuals is that commercialy loaded 300 lbk or whisper is loaded about the same pressure in supersonic form. Lower in subsonic form. Now when a long loaded 300 blk doesn't fit in a whisper all bets are off. say like the 220 grain OTM from remmington. I'm certainly no expert, but I am a dedicated hand loader and avid enthousiest. Please correct me if you find something wrong in this post. If I can find anything else that might contribute I will add later.

The OAL of both cartridges is the same. The ONLY issue is when 80+ grain bullets are used, of which there is ZERO factory ammunition. The .223 Remington has a MAP of 52k CUP.

[yondering]

Yondering, are those bullets blue or is that just my tablet screen? Powder coating?

Yes, blue powder coating. Notice the bullet has no lube groove; powder coating eliminates the need for other lube. I ground a D-reamer to the bullet shape and reamed the mold out from an old Lee 30-30 mold.

[yondering]

Yondering,

I have a lever action Marlin .35 and a Liberty Mystic can. Your pictures are very impressive. Have you ever shot factory rounds through the Mystic? What about super sonic reloads you have used?

Post a pic of that lever gun with the Mystic! Maybe I'm weird, but there's just something cool about a suppressed lever gun.

Honestly I almost never use factory ammo in anything but .22 and shotgun any more. I have fired some factory 115gr 9mm through the Mystic, but no factory 300 Blk or 35 Remington. I wouldn't use full power 35 Remington in my Mystic, although the new Mystic X is rated for 30-30, and might handle 35 Rem as well? (I was bummed to see the Mystic X come out about a month after buying mine!) My form 1 can handles full power 35 Rem though, so I haven't needed to try the Mystic (my handloads for the 760 are close to 308/358 Win power, not safe in lever guns).

Tell you what, the suppressed/subsonic .35 cal seems to have a real advantage over the more common .30 caliber stuff, in terms of killing power and ease of making good loads. It's way easier to make a large functional hollow point in the bigger .35 bullet, without stepping up the caliber so much that the bore size reduces suppressor effectiveness.

I think an ideal heavy-bullet subsonic .35 cartridge would be something like the 357 Maximum or 35 Gremlin, although the 35 Remington does really well considering it's extra capacity. Using cast bullets (less bore friction) and fast pistol powder helps a lot. I've launched this 255gr hollow point from 357, 35 Remington, and 35 Whelen rifles, here's the loads required to reach 1000 fps in each:
357 Mag (16" Marlin 1894) - 4gr Bullseye
35 Rem (16" Rem 760) - 6gr Bullseye
35 Whelen AI (22" Rem 700) - 7.5gr Bullseye

The Whelen is suprisingly not much louder than the 35 Rem, but that may be due to the extra 6" of barrel. The Whelen and Remington both show position sensitivity (different velocity readings depending on powder position) with light cast bullets (125gr or less) but are very consistent with the heavy cast stuff, despite the large case capacity. A 357 rifle would certainly be better (and quieter) with light bullet loads.

Wow that got long winded, sorry, just started typing stuff as I thought of it.

[hunter2]

Unique will work great also in sub 35's. I use it in a 375-06. I do know that heavy flat points in 357 subsonic takes a deer down quite nicely.

[jlwilliams]

Tell you what, the suppressed/subsonic .35 cal seems to have a real advantage over the more common .30 caliber stuff, in terms of killing power and ease of making good loads. It's way easier to make a large functional hollow point in the bigger .35 bullet, without stepping up the caliber so much that the bore size reduces suppressor effectiveness.

.....

I can't help but notice that a pump action rifle might be a great short barrel rifle. No gas system issues. It would be as straight forward as chopping a shotgun.

[hardcase]

Yondering,

I have a lever action Marlin .35 and a Liberty Mystic can. Your pictures are very impressive. Have you ever shot factory rounds through the Mystic? What about super sonic reloads you have used?

Post a pic of that lever gun with the Mystic! Maybe I'm weird, but there's just something cool about a suppressed lever gun.

I didn't mean to mislead. I have a .35 Marlin lever gun & a Mystic but don't have the barrel threaded yet. If I can shoot through the Mystic with supers, even reloaded light supersonics, I'll probably go ahead and get the dies and thread the barrel. I have a Dillon 550B and a Rock Chucker.