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 Post subject: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:44 pm 
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I recently purchased an AWC Life Support System suppressor that is compatible with both 5.7 x 28 and .223 (as well as .22 LR). I spent nearly twice the price on the LSS compared to Gemtech's 5.7 because it is 100% titanium and .223 compatible. I threaded it on to my AR-57 but after only 3 rounds (SS197) so much dirt and debris from blowback enters the chamber that empty casings could not be extracted. In fact I had to use a hammer and block of wood on the charging handle to get the third empty casing out. The debris builds up in the chamber and then when a subsequent round fires, it conforms to the chamber including all of the debris which makes it next to impossible for the bolt to extract the empty round.

Yesterday I grabbed my FiveseveN (just got the barrel back from Tornado Technologies), a box of SS198 and my AWC Life Support System suppressor. Although I had hoped for proper functioning, it was almost an exact rendition of utilizing the LSS on my AR-57 upper with a 6 inch barrel. Upon firing the first round, my face was peppered with debris. I pulled the trigger again and took a second load of grit in the face. There was no subsequent shot as it was so full of dirt and debris that the third round would not fully enter the chamber. I can’t help but wonder why they would take a suppressor to market that was incapable of working properly.

Called AWC this morning and spoke with Jeff who can't believe their suppressor is not working correctly and wants me to send the LSS and both guns to them at my expense to fix the problem. This is the 7th suppressor that I've purchased in the last two years. However, it is the first AWC and perhaps the last. Have any of you had a similar experience with this type of blowback?

I'll try to put together a video and get your opinions before I shell out the cash to send it back to AWC.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:55 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:48 pm
Posts: 812
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Don't have the LSS but I have an awc raider and it has very bad blow back.
It's their design.

I have shot a Spectre on my PS90, SBR'd, and 5.7 pistol and don't have this problem.

I run a M4-2K on my PS90 and Spectre on the 5.7 without issue.
I can get 300 rounds through the PS90 and 150 rounds through the 5.7 without problems.
That's all the mags I have.

But.......Torndado Tech does good work on that 5.7 don't they 8)
(gotta have a bright spot in this)

EDIT: I reread your post and I shoot my Spectre on my 11" AR57 and have not had any problems with blowback or FTE/FTF.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:59 am 
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I'm trying not to get bent out of shape over the whole ordeal but a thousand bucks is a lot of money to lay out and get very little in return.

On a more positive note, I've attached a photo of my latest build. Its a Tactical Solutions pistol based on the Ruger Charger platform. It hasn't given me any trouble yet.


Image


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 12:37 am
Posts: 4226
Location: South Sioux City, NE
Let us know how it works out.

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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Chris was shocked :shock: when I had accuracy issues on my m25 with their can.

After 3 trips back and forth to AWC, a missed shoot with Trey, and a year of excuses they got it fixed.

Can sounds good, but no more AWC for me.

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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:37 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Location: Land O' lakes, FL
Yeah, I wish you good luck. Id just use it as a 22 can, not worth the expense and hassle. Its the subpar performance of my 1st can a Archangel T, and lack of innovation that keeps me from ever buying from AWC again. To many others out there that have better designs not to mention customer service. If I was told to send it back at my expense....his ears would bleed by the time I was done.

Stick to Silencerco, AAC, and SWR in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Quote:
Yeah, I wish you good luck. Id just use it as a 22 can, not worth the expense and hassle.


The thought of paying $1000 plus a $200 tax stamp for a .22 can is not making me feel warm and fuzzy all over right now!


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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BimotaBiker wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, I wish you good luck. Id just use it as a 22 can, not worth the expense and hassle.


The thought of paying $1000 plus a $200 tax stamp for a .22 can is not making me feel warm and fuzzy all over right now!


Its like gambling....gotta know when to cut your losses..... :|

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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:54 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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I have an LSS and had problems with the Recoil Regulator, they like to call it. I finally talked them into making me a thread adapter. The major complaint was the regulator weighed more that the can it self plus the spring collapsed and it was useless in general. As far as blow black is concerned, it is my opinion that AWC's rifles cans are all just like the ThunderTrap, same baffles and design. Almost like they said, we don't need to do R&D lets just build a scaled down TT since we know it works. I think that baffles need to be tuned to the caliber itself. On a lighter note I like my TT but it weighs a effin ton.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:17 pm 
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Quote:
I have an LSS and had problems with the Recoil Regulator, they like to call it. I finally talked them into making me a thread adapter. The major complaint was the regulator weighed more that the can it self plus the spring collapsed and it was useless in general.


My LSS came with a thread adapter that takes it from the AR-57 upper to the FiveseveN. I'm not sure what the recoil regulator is or where it is located. I’m going to give Armament Service International in Pennsylvania a call on Monday. I had it shipped in from them as they are a stocking dealer for AWC. Maybe they can help me resolve the issue. Any Suggestions?


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:48 pm
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Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Since it is a design issue I wouldn't expect anything could be done besides opening the suppressor and removing the blast baffle to give a larger expansion chamber.

It sucks but it could be worse: I bought two of their suppressors, Archangel and Raider, and they are now only used for abusive firing schedules where I am wearing ear protection and don't care about damaging the can.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:30 pm 
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I contacted Armament Services today. I was basically told that it must be both of my weapons because they sell hundreds of AWC cans each year and no one has any trouble (my interpretation). They instructed me to speak with Chris at AWC to resolve the issue at hand.

Chris, like the folks at Armament Services, couldn’t believe that the can wasn’t working properly and instructed me to send the can and weapons to them, again at my expense, so they could resolve the issue. He went on to say that they’ve sold huge quantities of these cans and nobody else was having any issues. I informed Chris that he was welcome to contact my dealer who was there during the firing of each weapon. I told him that Ron (Ron Carman) had nearly 30 years experience with class III weaponry including suppressors. Chris said that he was sure Ron was a nice fellow but proceeded to let me know that neither one of us probably knew what we were talking about. I’m amazed at the fact that I can graduate college a total of five times and still be so stupid! An average tenth grader should be able to figure out why the weapons are unable to cycle. Condescending pricks tend to irritate the hell out of me.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:55 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:48 pm
Posts: 812
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I would say that your experience is exactly what mine has always been:
Continued dogma that AWC is of direct lineage of Jesus Christ and everyone else
isn't worthy to tie their shoes.
Take it as a less on learned and move on. Consider yourself lucky you haven't bought
two of their cans like I did.
I would NOT waste my money sending it back to them on your own dime.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 12:37 am
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Location: South Sioux City, NE
BimotaBiker wrote:
I contacted Armament Services today. I was basically told that it must be both of my weapons because they sell hundreds of AWC cans each year and no one has any trouble (my interpretation). They instructed me to speak with Chris at AWC to resolve the issue at hand.

Chris, like the folks at Armament Services, couldn’t believe that the can wasn’t working properly and instructed me to send the can and weapons to them, again at my expense, so they could resolve the issue. He went on to say that they’ve sold huge quantities of these cans and nobody else was having any issues. I informed Chris that he was welcome to contact my dealer who was there during the firing of each weapon. I told him that Ron (Ron Carman) had nearly 30 years experience with class III weaponry including suppressors. Chris said that he was sure Ron was a nice fellow but proceeded to let me know that neither one of us probably knew what we were talking about. I’m amazed at the fact that I can graduate college a total of five times and still be so stupid! An average tenth grader should be able to figure out why the weapons are unable to cycle. Condescending pricks tend to irritate the hell out of me.


Ron can't be too experienced as he let his customer buy AWC silencers. First blame lies on you who did not do your research. AWC has been around since the dawn of time, customers see their products in magazines they have to buy what is in magazines.

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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:24 pm 
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Quote:
I have shot a Spectre on my PS90, SBR'd, and 5.7 pistol and don't have this problem.


The folks who make the AR-57 upper recommend the Gemtech. Considering I have the AR-57 w/ 6 inch barrel and the 5.7 pistol, which of the two (Gemtech or Spectre) would you suggest that I purchase and why?


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:30 pm 
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Quote:
Ron can't be too experienced as he let his customer buy AWC silencers. First blame lies on you who did not do your research. AWC has been around since the dawn of time, customers see their products in magazines they have to buy what is in magazines.


Ron tried to talk me out of it from the start. It is my fault for insisting he get me the LSS for its light weight and ability to shoot 5.56mm. I accept full resposibility.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Location: Sunny Arizona
do you have a video yet?


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 am 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:48 pm
Posts: 812
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I can only comment on the Spectre.
It is light weight, built very solid and multicaliber. Not 5.56 though.
I have shot many rounds through my 5.7 pistol with it and have not experienced the
failures you have.
I do get some blowback but nothing like you have described.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:12 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:31 am
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From their website & manual:

Quote:
The AWC LSS 5.7 “Life Support System” was created to meet a requirement for a highly compact, ultra light weight and effective suppressor for the FN Five-seven Tactical pistol and the PS90 Rifle.


You might be able to resolve the issue with a simple consumer complaint form filed with your State Agency. Believe it or not, your local officials don't like it when companies in other States ripoff or screw the people who vote & pay taxes. The only legitimate counter that AWC has is that the can was NOT designed for AR's - it's for FN's........

As I've said before, AWC has made great historical contributions, but few if any of their current designs are worth buying as there are many other options that offer better value and performance.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:21 am 
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I emailed Armament Services to see if I could exchange it for two Gemtech suppressors. Please note that I sent the entire payment directly to them and have the cancelled check (for whatever that's worth).

My email:



I spoke with someone today at Armament Services about an AWC Life Support System that I purchased back in March and had shipped to Ron Carman, my Class III dealer here in Ohio. The supressor has had a total of five shots put through it (three attached to an AR 57 and two attached to an FN FiveseveN). It will not function on either weapon. Chris at AWC wants me to send the suppressor and both guns to him at my expense to sort out the issues. This is unacceptable to me. I have never had the suppressor transfered into my name and would like to exchange it for both a Gemtech for the 5.7 x 28 and a Gemtech to fit my .380 MAC-11. The two suppressors would be more expensive than just the Life Support System and I would be more than happy to pay the difference. Please let me know if this is acceptable to you.


Armament Services response


HELLO,

RECEIVED YOUR EMAIL MESSAGE BELOW. YOU SPOKE TO ME ON THURS.

WHILE YOU FIND IT UNACCEPTABLE TO SEND THE YOUR GUNS AND THE SUPPRESSOR TO AWC FOR INSPECTION YOU REALLY DO NOT HAVE MUCH OF A CHOICE. I SPOKE THE CHRIS BOTH YESTERDAY PRIOR TO YOU CALLING US AND THEN AFTER AND ALL WAS IN THE WORKS. SEVERAL HOURS LATER YOU DECEID NOT TO. THE SUPPRESSOR HAS BEEN FIRED AND NO LONGER CONSIDERED NEW, YOU DID NOT PURCHASE THE ITEM FROM US YOU PURCHASED IT FROM CARMEN, WE ARE THE AWC DIST WHO SOLD IT TO HIM, AWC IS THE MFG. NO ONE HERE (US AND AWC) IS RUNNING AWAY FROM THIS ISSUE BUT BARE IN MIND YOU ARE MAKING A CLAIM (I DO NOT DOUBT YOUR CLAIM) AND THE CLAIM WILL BE ADDRESSED. WITHOUT THE ITEMS IN QUESTION BEING SENT TO AWC NOTHING CAN OR WILL BE DONE FOR YOU.

AS FAR AS TRADING IN OR RETURNING/EXCHANGING THAT IS NOT A OPTION WITH US OR THE MFG. YOU PURCHASED IT FROM CARMEN NOT FROM US SO THAT ISSUE IS BETWEEN YOU AND HIM.

AGAIN FROM WHAT YOU TOLD ME ON THE PHONE I FIND THE PROBLEM THAT YOU LIST NEAR IMPOSSIBLE BUT WE NEVER RULE OUT A FIRST TIME FOR ANYTHING. PLEASE TAKE THE ADVICE OF THE MFG, SEND YOUR ITEMS TO THEM FOR THEM TO INSPECT AND ADDRESS THE ISSUES YOU EXPLAINED TO ALL OF US ON THE PHONE.

I HAVE THEM IN THE CC OF THIS EMAIL AND THEY ARE IN THE LOOP AS WELL.

V.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:18 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:48 pm
Posts: 812
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I just don't think you can win this one since transfers have taken place.

Best case scenario is you send in the items on your dime and they do some sort of magic
to make the combo's run but I just don't see it happening.

You could always try it on a 5.56 weapon but be sure you are running a gas buster or something equivalent.

Sorry to hear about your trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Bimoto, let me see if I have this right.

1. You bought an AWC LSS can and did not buy the replacement barrel from Jarvis. They are the only one that makes barrels for the 57. That is a tough barrel to begin with. Instead you sent your old existing barrel to Tornardo Technolgies and stuck on a barrel extension. FAIL.

2. You then contacted AWC and spoke to at least two people and one AWC dealer and they all said "we are ready to help you, this is rare and we want you to please return the can and the host to us and we will review it carefully and get you back to where you want to be." And...you did not and have not done that. FAIL.

3. You then decided to take the gun to a person that has nothing to do with either the can or the hosts. Make a note to yourself, MANY of us have 30+ years experience with hosts and cans...so what. FAIL.

4. You have yet to send you can and your hosts back to AWC. More insanely you want to swap it for a GEMTEC. FAIL.

5. Then you posted it here, so that every person that has never ever seen the inside of an LSS (if they did they would know exactly why it bears no resemblance to a ThundreTrap and quotes like "AWC's rifles cans are all just like the ThunderTrap, same baffles and design. Almost like they said, we don't need to do R&D lets just build a scaled down TT since we know it works" is nothing short of idiotic. FAIL. The LSS is a low pressure can.

Get your can back to the manufacturer with your host and THEN....after finding out what went wrong and seeing how their customer service ACTUALLY works....THEN.....complain about them, you won't.

I've got their cans and they and their customer service are both excellent. All the rest? Mental masterbation.

P.S. References to any LSS regulator harkens back to gen I and only in the first few months. Any reference to Thundertraps being heavy (they are now 100% titanium and are amongst the lightest available) tells you were your responses are coming from. LSS's haven't shipped out of AWC with regulators for YEARS.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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BimotaBiker's point of contention is that AWC wants him to send the suppressor and gun to them on his money. IE he pays for shipping. Since AWC sold him a product that he believes does not perform how it was advertised he believes AWC or the distributor should pay for the shipping charges.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:53 pm 
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We all got that. Anybody that welds on a barrel extension, especially in this caliber is most certainly looking to save the $20.

A man who spends $1k on a can and God knows what on anything other than a good barrel and then complains about the shipping on his can? FAIL.
Nobody needs to graduate from college 5 times (?!?) to know this is just plain dumb.

Now get your can AND HOST back to the people who you have bashed in this thread and lets all see what is REALLY the issue here.

I'll lay my money on the host barrel on this one as weld-ups suck each and every time.
Shipping? This is a fitting problem and they WILL fix it, start with a GOOD barrel.
Than you can take your perfect LSS (100% titanium) and shoot it next to the GEMTEC (100% aluminum) and tell us what you found out about build quality, construction, materials, design and sound levels.


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 Post subject: Re: AWC Life Support System
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Lost Soul wrote:
Now get your can AND HOST back to the people who you have bashed in this thread and lets all see what is REALLY the issue here.




Seriously.... the manufacturer told you send it back, quit bitching about 30 bucks shipping and send it back!

One other thought I had was what kind of ammo are you shooting? I had some surplus stuff that was really nasty and that might be an issue? try the fnh factory ftuss and see if that changes anything. just an idea!


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