Documentation on ATF SBR engraving

[bigbigpig]

I sent a Form 1 SBR to my gunsmith to have him engrave it and he called me saying the ATF no longer requires engraving if there are manufacturers markings and a SN already on the gun. I can't find any such documentation to support that and I'd like to have something official to go along with my Form 1. Can someone point me to something official from the ATF?

[GoingQuiet]

I sent a Form 1 SBR to my gunsmith to have him engrave it and he called me saying the ATF no longer requires engraving if there are manufacturers markings and a SN already on the gun. I can't find any such documentation to support that and I'd like to have something official to go along with my Form 1. Can someone point me to something official from the ATF?

Here you go.

[bigbigpig]

Ok... so then engraving of my name, city, and state as shown on the Form 1 is still required? What I was told is the opposite of what your letter says. I suppose I should have it engraved anyway just to be safe.

[pneumagger]

If I read that letter correctly, your SBR engraving information (Name, City, State) can be engraved on THE BARREL so that when the barrel is removed, the original barrel can be installed bringing the rifle back to it's original configuration (non-NFA). The Model, Caliber, and Serial number can be the same as the original mfg so the original engraving will suffice for your Form 1 SBR.

DiD I miss anything?

[hatidua]

I've seen letters posted, from the ATF, that go both ways. Enough to make me think we each need our own letter, addressed to us

[Bowen1911]

I've seen letters posted, from the ATF, that go both ways. Enough to make me think we each need our own letter, addressed to us

of course the atf goes both ways- those bisexual.....

[Bendersquint]

I've seen letters posted, from the ATF, that go both ways. Enough to make me think we each need our own letter, addressed to us

Doesn't matter if you have a letter from the ATF saying its ok and addressed specifically to you.

All letters are "OPINION LETTERS". if their opinion changes on it then your letter is invalid, the letters would never hold up in a court of law. There are many cases out there where people get a favorable opinion letter and then its reversed at a later date. I even had a letter from them saying(addressed to me) about a device I designed was legal, and 5 months later they sent me another later saying they reviewed my request and have determined it to be illegal and can not be produced for non LEO/MIL/GOV users. Glad I didn't put it into production!

Biggest one I can recall off the top of my head is the AKINS ACCELERATOR. Tech Branch(ATF) sent a letter saying that it is a stock and not a machinegun, was ok to manufacture as it didn't alter the weapon only made it bump fire. Hundreds were sold because of it for around 1000 and then the ATF came back and said they were illegal.

And to the OP, if you sent a letter specifically stating that you were doing it on an AR15 you would probably get a response about it being on the receiver. They approved many time engraving on the barrel for weapons like the MP5, and AK since the barrel isn't easily removed.

Another thing(it may have been said before) that regardless if you put a 16" barrel on your AR registered as an SBR, it is still registered as an SBR, meaning if you take it over state lines you have to have an approved 5320.20 to do so. Configuration doesn't matter if its in the registry then thats what ya gotta do(even this has at least a dozen letters saying this is true with at least a dozen saying as long as its not in SBR config its fine).

I see Ken Hutchens is finally out of office there so maybe the changing of the guard will give us more consistent responses. We can hope right?

-B

[Bowen1911]

Biggest one I can recall off the top of my head is the AKINS ACCELERATOR. Tech Branch(ATF) sent a letter saying that it is a stock and not a machinegun, was ok to manufacture as it didn't alter the weapon only made it bump fire. Hundreds were sold because of it for around 1000 and then the ATF came back and said they were illegal.

-B

This is the biggest F-up in recent times. That guy put his life into something perfectly legal, then they shut him down with no compensation.

If i could go back in time and tell that guy to invest in something else i would. Thats just plain wrong what they did

[Kramer]

If I read that letter correctly, your SBR engraving information (Name, City, State) can be engraved on THE BARREL so that when the barrel is removed, the original barrel can be installed bringing the rifle back to it's original configuration (non-NFA).

Yes it clearly states in the NFA regs that you can mark, engrave or impress your information in the receiver or barrel. The serial number must be on the receiver only.

[GoingQuiet]

Ok... so then engraving of my name, city, and state as shown on the Form 1 is still required? What I was told is the opposite of what your letter says. I suppose I should have it engraved anyway just to be safe.

Form 1 engraving requirements are the same as Form 2 engraving requirements.

Since YOU are the manufacturer - YOU have to conform with the requirement. This trips many people up which is why I have the letter from ATF on file. Worthy of note: If you engrave the barrel - depending on gun - you can have a very easy conversion back to title 1.

[700PSS]

Having read the opinion letter above, I'm left with one question. I am planning to build out a stripped AR lower and Form 1 it for another SBR to use with a 9" 300 BLK upper. The receiver is marked 5.56mm, but I will never use a 9" 5.56mm upper on it and would not be able to build or return it to such a configuration.

I want to list 9" as the barrel length and 300BLK as the caliber for this Form 1 build, but since the receiver was originally marked 5.56mm and not 300 BLK, I'm now confused as to how to list the caliber and be in compliance. I have already had the receiver engraved with name, city, state and the barrel is engraved 300 AAC BLACKOUT under the handguard, but it is pretty well obscured.

[Elessar]

The ATF specifically states directly that any rifle, including registered SBR receivers, that do not have a short barrel or cannot be readily converted to an SBR, do not fall under the perview of the NFA and do not need to be treated as an NFA. This includes selling it as a normal title 1 rifle.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-transfer

Another thing(it may have been said before) that regardless if you put a 16" barrel on your AR registered as an SBR, it is still registered as an SBR, meaning if you take it over state lines you have to have an approved 5320.20 to do so. Configuration doesn't matter if its in the registry then thats what ya gotta do(even this has at least a dozen letters saying this is true with at least a dozen saying as long as its not in SBR config its fine).

-B

[700PSS]

Bump for response.

Having read the opinion letter above, I'm left with one question. I am planning to build out a stripped AR lower and Form 1 it for another SBR to use with a 9" 300 BLK upper. The receiver is marked 5.56mm, but I will never use a 9" 5.56mm upper on it and would not be able to build or return it to such a configuration.

I want to list 9" as the barrel length and 300BLK as the caliber for this Form 1 build, but since the receiver was originally marked 5.56mm and not 300 BLK, I'm now confused as to how to list the caliber and be in compliance. I have already had the receiver engraved with name, city, state and the barrel is engraved 300 AAC BLACKOUT under the handguard, but it is pretty well obscured.

[Bowen1911]

Bump for response.

Having read the opinion letter above, I'm left with one question. I am planning to build out a stripped AR lower and Form 1 it for another SBR to use with a 9" 300 BLK upper. The receiver is marked 5.56mm, but I will never use a 9" 5.56mm upper on it and would not be able to build or return it to such a configuration.

I want to list 9" as the barrel length and 300BLK as the caliber for this Form 1 build, but since the receiver was originally marked 5.56mm and not 300 BLK, I'm now confused as to how to list the caliber and be in compliance. I have already had the receiver engraved with name, city, state and the barrel is engraved 300 AAC BLACKOUT under the handguard, but it is pretty well obscured.

If I remember Diomed's answer to this one, you don't need to even have the same caliber or length as your form 1/ form 4. If you register an AR as a 11.5 inch 5.56, but use a 4 inch .22 LR barrel only, you are still fine.

[700PSS]

So I'll register the receiver with the existing caliber marked on it (5.56mm) and the barrel length of my 300 BLK upper (9"), knowing I'll never have a 9" 5.56mm upper to go with it?

[Bowen1911]

So I'll register the receiver with the existing caliber marked on it (5.56mm) and the barrel length of my 300 BLK upper (9"), knowing I'll never have a 9" 5.56mm upper to go with it?

You might want to PM him. If I remember what he has said in past posts, that is perfectly legal.

[Bendersquint]

So I'll register the receiver with the existing caliber marked on it (5.56mm) and the barrel length of my 300 BLK upper (9"), knowing I'll never have a 9" 5.56mm upper to go with it?

Why not go and register it for several calibers? I have several SBR's that are registered with 5 or 6 calibers, and 5 or 6 barrel length's. Even for calibers that I NEVER had the intention when I registered it. 5 years after one of the registrations I ended up getting interested in one of the calibers, didn't have to send the ATF anything, since it was already registered for that caliber.

Easy as pie. Register it for 5.56 and 300BLK.

-B

[Bowen1911]

So I'll register the receiver with the existing caliber marked on it (5.56mm) and the barrel length of my 300 BLK upper (9"), knowing I'll never have a 9" 5.56mm upper to go with it?

Why not go and register it for several calibers? I have several SBR's that are registered with 5 or 6 calibers, and 5 or 6 barrel length's. Even for calibers that I NEVER had the intention when I registered it. 5 years after one of the registrations I ended up getting interested in one of the calibers, didn't have to send the ATF anything, since it was already registered for that caliber.

Easy as pie. Register it for 5.56 and 300BLK.

-B

I have heard conflicting stories on this- That nowadays, the ATF is not approving multiple calibers, that they only want one listed on the form.

Buuuuuttt, we all know the ATF likes to make stuff up as they go along.

[Bendersquint]

The ATF specifically states directly that any rifle, including registered SBR receivers, that do not have a short barrel or cannot be readily converted to an SBR, do not fall under the perview of the NFA and do not need to be treated as an NFA. This includes selling it as a normal title 1 rifle.

Can you give me the code information for where to find that in the regs? I can't seem to find in the regs book.

Are you saying that the AR-15 does not fall in the category of "EASILY CONVERTED"? I don't know of a easier converted weapons platform

AR Series.....pull 2 pins and drop new upper on, conversion done.
HK/AK Series.....disassemble entire weapon, aling in 5 ton press and slowly press out barrel, the slowly press in new barrel, check fitting, readjust and set pin, conversion done.

If the AR isn't a readily converted weapon system please tell me what is!

Not readily converted according to the ATF is HK MP5, AK47, FAL and other rifles that the barrels are pressed or torqued in. Easily converted according to the ATF is the AR15, Uzi, and one other that I can't think of off the top of my head. My MP5 when it was a Title1 firearms wasn't readily converted because I had to cut the barrel to make it a SBR. My AR-SBR's I just pull the pins and easily convert to SBR format.

You would have to remove said registered SBR from the NFA registry(simple letter to your examiner), you can't just install or press in a new barrel and sell as a Title1 rifle, got to unregister it first.

It took me a week or 2 to convert my HK MP5 from a Title 1 to Title2 once I had the approved form, however it is documented in the registry as a SBR, and had to be treated as such. I even asked the ATF-TB if I could drive from my home in VA to a gunsmith in MD to have the conversion done, and was told since it is a registered SBR that I need to have a 5320.20 on file for the transportation.

Am I missing something? I am looking for a reg that states this not an opinion letter that can be asked again with a different answer, as we know that is common practice.


-----
Bowen1911, most recent I have seen was an approved form from August of 2010. Mine were approved back in 2004, or 2005, so it has changed a bit since mine were approved. The approved form from Aug 2010 had 556, 9mm and 22lr on it, multiple lengths as well.

-B

[Bowen1911]

AR Series.....pull 2 pins and drop new upper on, conversion done.
HK/AK Series.....disassemble entire weapon, aling in 5 ton press and slowly press out barrel, the slowly press in new barrel, check fitting, readjust and set pin, conversion done.
-B

you don't use a hydraulic press to swap out barrels between range trips? I thought everyone did

[Bendersquint]

AR Series.....pull 2 pins and drop new upper on, conversion done.
HK/AK Series.....disassemble entire weapon, aling in 5 ton press and slowly press out barrel, the slowly press in new barrel, check fitting, readjust and set pin, conversion done.
-B

you don't use a hydraulic press to swap out barrels between range trips? I thought everyone did

Nope, guess I am one of the few

[Elessar]

The statue defines what an SBR is. If the rifle is not an SBR under the statue, it is not subject to the NFA.

from the ATF (published, not individual opinion letters):

Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm?
Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA “firearm” is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn’t comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law.

Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual?
There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA.

Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.

Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.


There is no part of the statue that states this. The ATF is answering common questions about the law. There is also no part of the statute that says you do not need to register a short barrelled marshmellow air gun. This is because the statue has already defined what constitutes a firearm and an SBR. The statue simply defines what an SBR is and when it needs to be registered. The ATF FAQs are explaining how this works in real life scenarios.
In this regard, SBRs are different from MGs and suppressors, as those are purpose built and their status cannot be changed based on configuration.

Can you give me the code information for where to find that in the regs? I can't seem to find in the regs book.

Are you saying that the AR-15 does not fall in the category of "EASILY CONVERTED"? I don't know of a easier converted weapons platform

AR Series.....pull 2 pins and drop new upper on, conversion done.
HK/AK Series.....disassemble entire weapon, aling in 5 ton press and slowly press out barrel, the slowly press in new barrel, check fitting, readjust and set pin, conversion done.

If the AR isn't a readily converted weapon system please tell me what is!

Not readily converted according to the ATF is HK MP5, AK47, FAL and other rifles that the barrels are pressed or torqued in. Easily converted according to the ATF is the AR15, Uzi, and one other that I can't think of off the top of my head. My MP5 when it was a Title1 firearms wasn't readily converted because I had to cut the barrel to make it a SBR. My AR-SBR's I just pull the pins and easily convert to SBR format.

You would have to remove said registered SBR from the NFA registry(simple letter to your examiner), you can't just install or press in a new barrel and sell as a Title1 rifle, got to unregister it first.

It took me a week or 2 to convert my HK MP5 from a Title 1 to Title2 once I had the approved form, however it is documented in the registry as a SBR, and had to be treated as such. I even asked the ATF-TB if I could drive from my home in VA to a gunsmith in MD to have the conversion done, and was told since it is a registered SBR that I need to have a 5320.20 on file for the transportation.

Am I missing something? I am looking for a reg that states this not an opinion letter that can be asked again with a different answer, as we know that is common practice.


-----
Bowen1911, most recent I have seen was an approved form from August of 2010. Mine were approved back in 2004, or 2005, so it has changed a bit since mine were approved. The approved form from Aug 2010 had 556, 9mm and 22lr on it, multiple lengths as well.

-B

[bayonet14]

That's what I did for my SBR - 4 calibers and length from 5.5" to 24"

So I'll register the receiver with the existing caliber marked on it (5.56mm) and the barrel length of my 300 BLK upper (9"), knowing I'll never have a 9" 5.56mm upper to go with it?

Why not go and register it for several calibers? I have several SBR's that are registered with 5 or 6 calibers, and 5 or 6 barrel length's. Even for calibers that I NEVER had the intention when I registered it. 5 years after one of the registrations I ended up getting interested in one of the calibers, didn't have to send the ATF anything, since it was already registered for that caliber.

Easy as pie. Register it for 5.56 and 300BLK.

-B