Surefire Mini vs the rest

[Kudu22]

John I know you know Barry fairly well and have been in contact with him and I from time to time. I do encourage you to reach out to Barry again and discuss our sound equipment, testing procedure and the other questions you might have including our test firing procedure that you were concerned with recently. We do respect your work as a consumer advocate and we might not always see eye to eye SureFire has always been dedicated to giving the utmost accurate information. I believe you have never faulted us on our data before when you were testing our suppressors. I am sure you will find and able to confirm as a independent source that the procedures are well above standard.

[Kevin/AAC]

Hey Kevin thanks for stopping by our booth at SHOT. Glad you guys got into the "MINI" market. Not sure about the name but it does save money on the marketing side of things for you guys.
No need for us to send suppressors to your good friend we don't need to rely on so called 3rd party "testing". Our gear is tested a lot by other sources. You should already know this about SureFire. BTW yes the numbers I gave were correct. They were taken today as a matter of fact when I filled Barry in about the MINI4 on a 11.5". We run the SureFire MINI on 10.5 all the time and felt we would get up to date data based on this thread.

Nice.

We have built Mini silencers in the past. Shot Show 2007 comes to mind for the Masada rifle for Magpul, but I appreciate you guys making them cool again. So, thank you.

I'm not certain I understand your marketing comment. I assume it's a jab at AAC or something? I believe we spend our fair share marketing for the silencer industry, so I won't take offense.

To the Mini4 and SF Mini/Micro suppressors... We were asked by a .mil customer about small silencers after you guys started pushing your units. The customer informed us that they were excited about the size for your small cans, however performance was very lacking, especially on 14.5" and 10.3" barrels. We were asked to make a mini silencer that was hearing safe on a 14.5" barrel. That's what we accomplished and are offering with the Mini4 silencer...the first hearing safe mini silencer on the 14.5" barrel.



14.5” M4, XM 193

Surefire Micro – 151.2 dB
Surefire Mini- 146.1 dB
AAC Mini4 – 139.2

Can you explain what "The SureFire Light of Truth" is all about?

[Tuukka]

Hi Garin,

With regards to the question from Kevin,

I asked this also in a another thread on the forums here, but correct me if I am mistaken, the numbers you post on the forums here are taken at the shooters ear, as per your website ( Ear reference position )?

This meaning the left ear of a right handed shooter, correct?

The MIL-STD 1474D that many manufacturers use or atleast use as a guideline, specifies the 1 m left of the muzzle location and 15 cm from the ear closest to the muzzle / breech, but the last part leaves interpretation to the manufacturer on how to measure, if one tests according to that standard.

With semiautomatic and select fire weapons, on some weapon systems you will see a higher level at the shooters right ear, commonly the ejection port side. Many weapons are still below 140 dB (A) at the shooters left ear and even at the muzzle, but it is good to know the actual levels for the right ear.

Our company usually measures at the three locations referenced above, if needed & based on the weapon type.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

[John Titsworth]

John I know you know Barry fairly well and have been in contact with him and I from time to time. I do encourage you to reach out to Barry again and discuss our sound equipment, testing procedure and the other questions you might have including our test firing procedure that you were concerned with recently. We do respect your work as a consumer advocate and we might not always see eye to eye SureFire has always been dedicated to giving the utmost accurate information. I believe you have never faulted us on our data before when you were testing our suppressors. I am sure you will find and able to confirm as a independent source that the procedures are well above standard.

I appreciate your comments on the matter. I will discuss this with Barry further, and I will be thoroughly testing the Surefire line this year. I sincerely hope to see good results that match the Surefire marketing efforts thus far.

Thanks

[orionz06]

We were asked by a .mil customer about small silencers after you guys started pushing your units. The customer informed us that they were excited about the size for your small cans, however performance was very lacking, especially on 14.5" and 10.3" barrels.

What role were they trying to fill? Aside from being hearing safe on a 14.5"?

[Dr.Phil]

We were asked to make a mini silencer that was hearing safe on a 14.5" barrel. That's what we accomplished and are offering with the Mini4 silencer...the first hearing safe mini silencer on the 14.5" barrel.

The SRT Typhoon is classified as a mini (4.7" long) is "hearing safe" 139bd on a 14.4" barrel firing M855 using MIL STD Testing and has been out since at least 2004.
(Titsworth's testing backs this up as well.)
Just saying, it is not a new thing...

*NOTE*
I have no connection to SRT or any other manufacture.
Just commenting from first hand experience.

[Kevin/AAC]

We were asked to make a mini silencer that was hearing safe on a 14.5" barrel. That's what we accomplished and are offering with the Mini4 silencer...the first hearing safe mini silencer on the 14.5" barrel.

The SRT Typhoon is classified as a mini (4.7" long) is "hearing safe" 139bd on a 14.4" barrel firing M855 using MIL STD Testing and has been out since at least 2004.
(Titsworth's testing backs this up as well.)
Just saying, it is not a new thing...

*NOTE*
I have no connection to SRT or any other manufacture.
Just commenting from first hand experience.

Not in our testing. It doesn't meet sound, weight, flash, POI, durability, repeatability, or accuracy requirements. And there are further requirements for meeting .mil expectations that SRT may encounter.

[Kevin/AAC]

We were asked by a .mil customer about small silencers after you guys started pushing your units. The customer informed us that they were excited about the size for your small cans, however performance was very lacking, especially on 14.5" and 10.3" barrels.

What role were they trying to fill? Aside from being hearing safe on a 14.5"?

"Subcompact"

[ArevaloSOCOM]

Is this what happens when someone asks a question over here?

LOL!

Orion,

You made me shoot coffee out my nose!

Our industry often has more drama than a Mexican soap opera.

The good news for you, as a consumer, is that there are so many people in the industry that are DEEPLY passionate about what they do. The bad news is that when you combine that passion with different personalities, agendas, conflicting interests, .etc drama can (and will) ensue.

It is what it is.

+1

Muchas veces se llena the arena las chochas aqui..........

Major.............set up your equipment, cans, whatever and I'll meet you with my meters so we can do multiple locations at the same time............you know how to reach me if you think we can work something out together.

[Dr.Phil]

Not in our testing. It doesn't meet sound, weight, flash, POI, durability, repeatability, or accuracy requirements. And there are further requirements for meeting .mil expectations that SRT may encounter.

I'll defer to expert opinion on such maters since I have not clinically tested any sound suppressors.
I can only comment on personal experience.
That experience has been predominantly positive with the exception of the items I listed in my earlier post.

I would like to know what specific durability issues you speak of though.
That way I can look out for them during PM inspection.

Out of curiosity, would it be out of line for you to objectively recommend any products that you feel are of the same quality of AAC?
At this time there are some very good quality manufactures putting our sound suppressors and it would seem narrow minded to think that AAC always has the best solution to a user's need.
A good example of this is the Gemtech Halo or SRT Universal Typhoon.
As far as I know, AAC does not offer a suppressor that is capable of mounting to an off the rack rifle with an A2 flash hider.

[Tuukka]

With regards to A1 or A2 FH mounting, a view from this side of the pond.

Our earlier QM-mount was originally designed to work with the A1 / A2 flashhiders, when properly used and if the flashhider is correctly aligned, a very good and secure mounting solution.

The A1 / A2 bird cage flashhiders were never intended to be suppressor mounts.

The big if here is the flashhider alignment, as some manufacturers use crush washers. The suppressor manufacturer might not be able to control or check the suppressor alignment in each and every case, leading to issues in use that have to be resolved later on.

A purpose built suppressor mount is really the best choice.

If a particular unit or individual wants to continue using a bird cage flashhider or for example a Vortex flashhider, we offer a mounting collar in our BoreLock mounting system, that allows the fitting of our BL-equipped suppressor, whilst keeping the original flashhider. However, if crush washers have been used, it is good to check the barrel shoulder for any burrs etc.

Take Care!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

[Dr.Phil]

Tuukka,

Thanks for the information on using a non-purpose built mount for mounting a suppressor.
I have been down that road and in fact one of things that I did to enhance my setup was to switch to an AAC Blackout (Non-Mount) FA for use with my can.
I wanted to maximizes the versitility on my 5.56 suppressor and that is the primary reason that I went that route.

The mention of the setup was only as an example of a reason that one might not go with an AAC product.
Not trying to bait Kevin or anything, but I am curious to know how they regard their competition.
It is common place to recomend a competitor if your product might not best suit the client's need.
Integral Silencers would also be a good example of this.

[Kevin/AAC]

Not in our testing. It doesn't meet sound, weight, flash, POI, durability, repeatability, or accuracy requirements. And there are further requirements for meeting .mil expectations that SRT may encounter.

I'll defer to expert opinion on such maters since I have not clinically tested any sound suppressors.
I can only comment on personal experience.
That experience has been predominantly positive with the exception of the items I listed in my earlier post.

I would like to know what specific durability issues you speak of though.
That way I can look out for them during PM inspection.

Out of curiosity, would it be out of line for you to objectively recommend any products that you feel are of the same quality of AAC?
At this time there are some very good quality manufactures putting our sound suppressors and it would seem narrow minded to think that AAC always has the best solution to a user's need.
A good example of this is the Gemtech Halo or SRT Universal Typhoon.
As far as I know, AAC does not offer a suppressor that is capable of mounting to an off the rack rifle with an A2 flash hider.

I understand your point, but AAC did build a silencer that attached to the A2 flash hider and it was discontinued b/c starting with the A2 is a compromise in every regard other than being low cost.

There are several silencer companies making good products on the commercial and .mil side. I like some of KAC, SF, and Silencerco's products. But, I also feel that I can state with certainty that AAC is one of the top considerations in every category too.

[Kevin/AAC]

Tuukka,

Thanks for the information on using a non-purpose built mount for mounting a suppressor.
I have been down that road and in fact one of things that I did to enhance my setup was to switch to an AAC Blackout (Non-Mount) FA for use with my can.
I wanted to maximizes the versitility on my 5.56 suppressor and that is the primary reason that I went that route.

The mention of the setup was only as an example of a reason that one might not go with an AAC product.
Not trying to bait Kevin or anything, but I am curious to know how they regard their competition.
It is common place to recomend a competitor if your product might not best suit the client's need.
Integral Silencers would also be a good example of this.

True. But, AAC will have integrals available at the 2011 Silencer Shoot in June. We showed them at Shot Show.

[orionz06]

What is the expected POI shift of the Mini 4?

[Kevin/AAC]

Minimal.

[orionz06]

Minimal.

Do you guys have any specific numbers? I understand each barrel, each can, each mount, and every lot of ammo will be different, but ball park range?

[RyanB]

why would you even consider the SF can, when the OPS Inc M4S is going to be as "quiet", at least as durable if not more, and costs nearly SIX TIMES LESS?

ETA: just remembered that the SF mini is the one that is 1/2" longer than the M4s, so it might be a bit more quiet.

Mini and M4S are not comparable. Period.

[RyanB]

....

Mainly for value. All of these wee-ones will still be relatively loud, so it comes down to value and mounting options. I like the Surefire's mount, but it's just ridiculously expensive. The other option is the Ops Inc M4-S. I'm a huge Ops Inc fan (have one myself), but a user needs to be ready for a slightly different mounting option that you may need to plan for. For example, I had to make my own collar for the brake because I put their SPR silencer on an M4 profiled barrel (this was before the 16th model came out). The benefit with the OPS can is that it's the most reliable mount on the market IMO and the mount is supplied with the can.

In the end, I wouldn't even recommend one of the small ones unless that's what you reeaallly want or have some mission-critical requirement. You'll enjoy an M4-2000 or Ops Inc 15th or 16th model a whole lot more.

Thanks for the response. Now if price was not a consideration and weight and size were, which direction would you go?

I agree with what Jason says. Besides, splitting hairs over weight at this point is meaningless. The little cans are cool, but it's worth it to have a few extra ounces and a lot more suppression. That's why I still recommend a medium to full length silencer to most people.

I use hearing protection most of the time with cans anyway, so I like smaller cans. I really like the FMBS concept--multiple lengths of can that fit the same mount. With OPS, SF and to a lesser extent AAC you can get a longer can for quiet, and a moderator or short can for taking classes or running out of a car.

[C4iGrant]

I have to kind of wonder when AAC posts DB rating for cans, they are believed, but if another company does it (like SF), it is disputed.

Kind of a double standard don't ya think???




Just sayin....



C4

[Ctaylor]

I have to kind of wonder when AAC posts DB rating for cans, they are believed, but if another company does it (like SF), it is disputed.

Kind of a double standard don't ya think???

It's because they say in all their literature that "DB doesn't matter" but when DB is brought up they always claim they have the best. Take a look a their catalog. Every single 5.56 can is tested on a 20" barrel. Surefire also won't disclose what testing parameters they're using, as well as they refuse to submit their cans to independent third party testing, something AAC has been willing to do for a long time.

[Schulze]

I have to kind of wonder when AAC posts DB rating for cans, they are believed, but if another company does it (like SF), it is disputed.

Kind of a double standard don't ya think???

Yeah, it's a real conspiracy. Anyone who follows the testing knows 130 dB is rarely reached by even the best 5.56 cans.

For years, AAC has not been so stupid as to make outrageous dB claims that will be debunked by an independent tester. But Surefire apparently is.

[kalikraven]

I plan on taking off the AAC M42K off my FN P90 Clone and getting a MINI for it. I allready have the mount and I'm sure that this can will be great for the 5.7x28 round.

[orionz06]

I have to kind of wonder when AAC posts DB rating for cans, they are believed, but if another company does it (like SF), it is disputed.

Kind of a double standard don't ya think???




Just sayin....



C4

They are fully welded...

[Kevin/AAC]

I have to kind of wonder when AAC posts DB rating for cans, they are believed, but if another company does it (like SF), it is disputed.

Kind of a double standard don't ya think???




Just sayin....



C4

Excellent point. But, this is why we submit our silencers for independent testing. I'm not certain SF is willing to do it?

Kevin