ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

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bdeardorf
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ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by bdeardorf » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:24 pm

Found this on another forum
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ouble.html

Guess that answers the question if you should post your new NFA item on your your Schedule A. I do not think I would but I see that a lot of people do put the new item on the Schedule A before it has been approved.

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:29 pm

bdeardorf wrote:Found this on another forum
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ouble.html

Guess that answers the question if you should post your new NFA item on your your Schedule A. I do not think I would but I see that a lot of people do put the new item on the Schedule A before it has been approved.
I always add to my Schedule A when it gets approved. I do an assignment of property form, update my Schedule A and go pick up my item. This always works for me this way. You'd think that the trust pays for it, and owns it even before the trustees may possess it but I guess it's viewed differently by the Bureau of All Things Fun.
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by urban assault » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:49 pm

When I had my AK-74 SBR'd by the builder I put it into the schedule A before it was approved. Used Quicken 08 to make my own Trust for Oregon.

Got the stamp back in 57 days, no problems whatsoever.

Looks like the times they are a changing'... and not for the better.

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by PAIN » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:52 am

Read what the MOD says about this issue.

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... ble-3.html

Personally, this is exactly how I do mine and I haven't had the least bit of trouble in the last 3 transfers. My NFA lawyer also said to do it this way. Just like the MOD says in that topic, and I agree 100% with him.

It might be a new inspector or he has a hair over his buttocks, who can understand these guys. Some transfers go 2 months others last over a year, WHY?
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by AllenArms » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:19 pm

I always advise my customers to never list anything in there Schedule A or assignment of personal property until the have the approved Forms in there hands. I also do this personally and have never had a issue with mine or any customers. If they are return customers that are adding a new item to the trust I always try to check to make sure that if they have any other items in there trust they are listed(ie:Make/Model/Serial#) I have had a call from the ATF saying that "in there records the John Doe Trust has X items that are not listed in the schedule A and they will need an updated version of it before they can approve the new item."
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by pierre1631 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:25 pm

I have customers with 5+ NFA items registered to their trust- but are not listed on their Schedule A. It only lists their initial property transfer. Like others have said- depends on the examiner.
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by LawBob » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:44 pm

The new nfa item cannot be trust property until the transfer is approved

Just the nature of a trust

Until the transfer is approved, title to the item remains with the prior owner--how can the trust list it as trust property prior to approval?


Once approved, the item is trust property. The schedule a is just a convenient housekeeping item to list trust property. It is not a requirement except for a state's requirement under the duties of the trustee to "account" for trust property.

A schedule A can be considered part of an accounting...

It's not a requirement of the nfa or batfe, but so many people do it that it may have become part and parcel to what an examiner wants to see for future transfers.

I have 10 stamps and no sch a

My clients (just a few) have no sch a

But the "something is missing" batfe checkbox worksheet they send you has as an option and a missing sch a is one of them

I got this for including my name as trustee on a new trust instead of just the trust name in box 2a.

That same examiner approved 5 stamps of mine in 2009 with my name as trustee under the trust name in box 2a

So go figure

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by mhidpa » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:20 pm

I have always gone by the theory that the MOD stated. Both my transfers were done with the item already on the schedule A. Last one was approved 4 Jan. I did however have my most recent form 4 returned because I didn't include copies of my schedule B or C (neither one have anything in them). I really think it is just luck of the draw on which examiner you get and how they interpret things.

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by bdeardorf » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:58 pm

We know that they have returned them for having the new item on the Sch A but does anyone know if one has ever been returned for NOT having the new item on the Sch A? Sounds like they have no set rule for it either, just depends on the examiner. Guess it comes down to which one has the best chance of not being returned.

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by wyoguy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:40 am

Could A Guy Cover Himself BOTH WAYS....For The Possibility That You Might Get An Examiner Who Thinks the 'New' Can NEEDS To Be Listed On The Schedule, Versus An Examiner Who Thinks It Should NOT Be....

By Listing The 'NEW' Can Then Writing----(PENDING APPROVAL) ?

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by JohnInNH » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:52 pm

pierre1631 wrote:I have customers with 5+ NFA items registered to their trust- but are not listed on their Schedule A. It only lists their initial property transfer. Like others have said- depends on the examiner.

If you never do an assignment of property and "sign in" your NFA item into your trust you are in violation. Your NFA items are contraband if not signed into your trust in a "reasonable amount of time" .... PERIOD!

Reasonable = Pick it up on a Friday... Sign it in the following week.. (I don't mess around and only let 1-2 working days at the most go by.)

Not reasonable = A month later.

Intentionally not signing them in is a direct violation. (they are still contraband if you forgot to sign it in and you could use it as a defense, but intentionally not signing them in is bad mogo!)

I called and asked. It is a direct violation to NOT sign the property into your trust.

Ok Ok the answer to HOW DO THEY KNOW... They Don't.... They can't tell.

But .. I suspect if you continue to to use the trust route and do not have any NFA items in a Schedule A that you used the trust to buy previously they could tell..

If you continue to use a trust and do not sign them in at some time I would expect an AFT agent may ask for to produce your trust documents and if you could not show them they would absolutely be in the right if they arrested you for possession of contraband.

Why a person would DELIBERATELY not sign a NFA item into their trust if they used the trust to buy it is beyond me. It's clearly breaking the law.

Be advised it is a FELONY. They are risking a LOT by not signing the items into their trust via an Assignment of Property.

I don;t screw around with this. I send in copies of my assignments of property to show the examiner I am following the law. A copy of my trust = Original trust documents + all Assignments of Property and CURRENT Schedule A
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by PAIN » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:03 pm

Not that it matters as everyone does these trusts differently, but here are my specific instructions, copied and pasted word for word from my trust. My trust was made by a lawyer, and he charged me $750.00
One of the reasons I love Connecticut so much.......As I said above, this has worked 3 times so far, by 2 different examiners.

Assignment Page / Weapon Purchase

You should fill out an Assignment page (the last page of this document) for each purchase of
a firearm restricted by the NFA. We recommend printing and using a new copy each time and only
including the item(s) on the Form 4 or Form 1 you are sending in.
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by Blaubart » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:19 pm

As long as it's listed before you physically take possession of it, you're good. The rest is just splitting hairs.

I subscribe to the belief that there is no "title" involved in NFA goodies, only a permission slip from the ATF as to who is authorized to be in possession of the item. So, if you pay for the item, it then belongs to you. Since there is no legal "title" involved, you do not have to wait for title work to be done. But even if there was, when does a car become yours? A: When you pay for it. The seller prepares a bill of sale and signs the title over to you when the money changes hands. The vehicle technically belongs to you even though the title is not yet in your name. So, IMHO, you should be able to list the item on your trust as soon as you pay for it. The only drawback I see there is if there is a mixup with the serial number, or if for some reason you do not get approved, then you have to remove the item from your trust.

Either way, as long as you add it to your trust before taking it home, you won't wind up on the wrong side of the law...
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by Stout » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:28 am

My schedule A has only one item; "All NFA Items". Three form 4's processed with no issues. I sent a form 1 out last week so we'll see if any issues are raised.

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by msgmwrdn » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:27 pm

This is my first time(posting) so be nice :D
I have been working on the side for a Class III dealer in Mississippi for the last 6 years. I have seen Form 4s come back. At first if the Trust was notarized it was signed off on and the Stamp issued (very simple). In the last Year and a Half. We got Forms back because they lacked being filed with the Chancery Clerk in the county of residence. Then it was a lack of a Schedule A and Schedule B. We were told we had to list an asset on Schedule A but it could not be the NFA item in question because, although it was payed for it did not belong to the Trust until the Stamp for that item was issued.

I am guessing that the requirement for filing with the Chancery Clerk is based off of our state law that requires it to be valid. Our state law also, requires any new items be listed in writing and filed with the Chancery Clerk.

However, we have not had the issue come up (with the ATF) about a complete list of Trust owned items not listed on a Schedule A presented with a new Form 4.

Time will tell

P.S. I am no lawyer, just a dumb LEO :D
P.S.S I also believe that a lot of this is a direct relationship to the mood of the examiner

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by dtom29 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:43 pm

Blaubart wrote:As long as it's listed before you physically take possession of it, you're good. The rest is just splitting hairs.

I subscribe to the belief that there is no "title" involved in NFA goodies, only a permission slip from the ATF as to who is authorized to be in possession of the item. So, if you pay for the item, it then belongs to you. Since there is no legal "title" involved, you do not have to wait for title work to be done.
That is right. The trust owns it when it's paid for. You are just applying for permission to possess the item. I have seven transfers, three more pending. Every one of my forms were sent in with the item being transferred already listed in the schedule "A". As a matter of fact, when I created the trust the first item in the Schedule "A" was the then unapproved SBR that was being Form 1ed. An Assignment of Property is just a waste of paper. Just go back into your computer program and add the item to the Schedule "A". The items in the Trust are whatever you say they are.

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by SC-Texas » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:27 pm

The ownership interest can be created before the right to posses is vested

But do you really want to argue with a bureaucrat?
http://www.TexasGunTrust.com

http://www.Houstonattorney.org

http://www.Atomiclabrat.com

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by SC-Texas » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:27 pm

The ownership interest can be created before the right to posses is vested

But do you really want to argue with a bureaucrat?
http://www.TexasGunTrust.com

http://www.Houstonattorney.org

http://www.Atomiclabrat.com

Family and Criminal Law services in Houston, TX

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by eastern_hunter » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:12 pm

OK ... am new to the Trust thing. Did one through GunTrustLawyer recently. Have not applied for a Form 4 transfer yet, but expect to do so shortly.

For the first use of the Trust, do you include an empty Assignment Sheet in the Trust document, and then add the item to the assignment sheet when the transfer is approved?

Thanks!

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by yamatitan » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:13 pm

eastern_hunter wrote:OK ... am new to the Trust thing. Did one through GunTrustLawyer recently. Have not applied for a Form 4 transfer yet, but expect to do so shortly.

For the first use of the Trust, do you include an empty Assignment Sheet in the Trust document, and then add the item to the assignment sheet when the transfer is approved?

Thanks!
add something to it like a 5 dollar bill to make it a valid trust. Then when you get the form 4 back add the item and take the 5 dollar bill out.

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by Supradedupra » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:28 pm

I added one of my pistols to my trust as the first item to validate it.

While reading that link, I came across something that caught my attention. Is it true that if you call to check the status of your transfer, it delays the transfer?
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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by yamatitan » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:36 pm

Supradedupra wrote:I added one of my pistols to my trust as the first item to validate it.

While reading that link, I came across something that caught my attention. Is it true that if you call to check the status of your transfer, it delays the transfer?
no not true

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by SC-Texas » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:18 am

A trust must have proeprty in it to be valid in Texas (and this is generalyl true for all trusts in all states).


It is not true that it delayes your approval if you call to check the status. I tell all of my clients and customers to call after 3.5 months.
http://www.TexasGunTrust.com

http://www.Houstonattorney.org

http://www.Atomiclabrat.com

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by slackercruster » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:47 pm

Can the schedule A be a simple inventory sheet of the trusts assets that is signed by the trustee? Or must it be a special form?

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Re: ATF/NFA Trust Trouble

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:23 pm

slackercruster wrote:Can the schedule A be a simple inventory sheet of the trusts assets that is signed by the trustee? Or must it be a special form?
Not sure, but mine is a simple inventory sheet that I print from a spreadsheet and it's served me well.
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