Captive Piston Technology

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solitary.phoenix
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Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

Does anyone here have first-hand experience with either firing or having witnessed the firing of a captive piston cartridge?

If so, I am very interested in hearing your first impressions. What it sounded like, what you thought of it, etc.


The more I think about suppressors, the more I'm coming to terms with something. Having a heavy weight at the end of a handgun slows down it's general speed of aim and operation. There is no way around this. Unsuppressed centerfire pistols are faster to use and easier to conceal than even the best centerfire pistol suppressor. It's true that the extra weight of a supressor can sometimes help with recovery and making a followup shot, but getting that first shot on target quicker than the bad guy is always going to matter more to me. Yes, there are tactical applications for a centerfire pistol silencer. But the principles of reactive gunfighting dictate that the fight won't always be what we want it to be or where we want it to be. It doesn't guarantee that we'll have the drop on a group of enemies.

Unsuppressed guns can be concealed, unsuppressed guns can be drawn and put on target with extreme speed. With practice, the cumbersome handling of a silenced centerfire pistol can be overcome to a degree. But it will always cause "extra length" to be at the end of it's host, thereby "leading" it's host and operator around corners, etc. There are lighter, shorter centerfire handgun silencers produced- but even wet, these generally perform very poorly in terms of suppression and good luck finding a carry holster that fits them. Even these give the bad guy a convenient handle to grab on to if he has the opportunity, e.g as we turn a corner clearing the house.

I know that the ATF has a different take on various firearm definitions. Like Shoestring = machinegun, etc. But there is no "report" to "muffle" with captive piston technology. There is no gas that travels through the barrel to form a "report". There is combustion within the cartridge itself... the cartridge itself is cycled through a firearm. Now, if you were to affix some device to the firearm to further muffle the piston-mechanical noise of the cartridge itself, then I could see how that would be de-facto illegal under the legal silencer/muffler definition.

But think about this- think about all the various ammunition types and loads for any given platform. Some are naturally louder- some are naturally quieter. Less powder, less pressure- quieter. In many cases, these cartridges can muffle the sound signature of the host by MORE than the legal definition of a firearm silencer or muffler (1 single dB).

Some ammunition types and loads are INHERENTLY silencers in and of themselves if you extend the "silencer" definition to cartridges.

So what's wrong with a cartridge that is INHERENTLY even quieter than these- ala captive piston loads?

ATF wrote: The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

Yeah, I know it wouldn't fly with the ATF. I know that I'm preaching to the choir. I know that if you were to work up some of these, they would land you in federal prison. But does my argument make some logical, legal sense? If you think it does, then let's push this issue. Maybe muzzle silencers will be rendered obsolete after captive piston technology is perfected. Maybe we won't even need to get the NFA repealed or altered for silencers.



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Re: Captive Piston Technology

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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by CThomas »

solitary.phoenix wrote:
Maybe muzzle silencers will be rendered obsolete after captive piston technology is perfected. Maybe we won't even need to get the NFA repealed or altered for silencers.
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So you want to make cans obsolete and you posted this on suppressor board. :shock:
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by doubloon »

Even if someone were successful in creating and marketing "silent" subsonic rounds for every popular caliber out there today suppressors would still be useful in supersonic applications.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by TROOPER »

doubloon wrote:Even if someone were successful in creating and marketing "silent" subsonic rounds for every popular caliber out there today suppressors would still be useful in supersonic applications.
That's really the key right there. Nevermind the cost per bullet. Even if someone took the time to make those kinds of bullets in a .22 format, how much would they cost per shot? And would it still be better to just buy a silencer and use regular .22?

What's the cost per shot on this for a 9mm, for example?

Its a unique thing, and I'm sure that having a unique capability means that it is a singularly useful took for specific task. What that task is doesn't include anything I use a silencer for, and therefore that it would make it significantly more expensive per shot without any corresponding improvement to the outcome.

Not knocking it, its just got advantages that I can't make use of, or that most people can make use of.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

doubloon wrote:Even if someone were successful in creating and marketing "silent" subsonic rounds for every popular caliber out there today suppressors would still be useful in supersonic applications.
Exactly. I most definitely see a place for muzzle suppressors within supersonic applications, even if captive piston technology could be made to replicate the terminal ballistic efficiency and accuracy of conventional cartridge ammunition in subsonic loads. The context of this post for me is primarily regarding pistol applications- perhaps I should have been more clear when I made my statement regarding muzzle silencer obsoletion. Of course, any weapon used in extreme close quarters could also benefit from the length-savings afforded unsuppressed weapons loaded with piston cartridges.

Trooper, I see where you're coming from and agree. They most definitely would be expensive to produce and use in high-volume practice. However, if all went well they would not require a tax stamp or any red-tape to purchase. This would make them more available to good guys as well as bad guys, unfortunately. I do not relish the idea of any little black panther or skinhead undeservedly using technologically advanced weapons to further his thuggery. But that same person- if even half intelligent- could use the wealth of free information available in the silencersmithing forum or in books to produce his own muzzle silencer. Criminal- even Domestic Terrorist elements- of our society include gunsmiths, hackers and machinists within their ranks. Or the aforementioned could simply use a knife to "kill the white babies".

The niche that I personally see captive piston cartridges filling are actual combat usage. Think of them as a hearing safe super-premium ammunition designed for carry and defensive use. Cartridges that offer all of the tactical advantages of silencer usage but with none of the length, weight or balance imposed disadvantages.

Let me say that I intend to be entirely transparent and unbiased in my research, theories and findings. That being said: In theory, there is another disadvantage to an efficient captive piston cartridge that we haven't yet touched on. Lack of sound. In many cases, we think of sound as something that is unwanted in combat or self defense. Mostly because of the disorienting effect that it has on us and the permanent damage that it causes to our sensorineural hearing cells. But also consider- that same impulse noise which damaged your ears just alerted everyone within your vicinity that you and your loved ones are in danger and that a firearm was discharged. If you fail your task of protecting your loved ones- for whatever good reason- help is probably on the way because of your loudass unsuppressed gun.

If you do get the chance to fire the first shot directly at your attacker, he will be covered with unburnt powder (could serve for later identification) and severely disoriented by the shot that just went off in his face. A further tactical advantage that an unsuppressed pistol would not give. If it's dark, his night-adapted vision would be handicapped. Unfortunately yours too.

I have been shot at. It is an unpleasant, particularly loud and undesirable occurence.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by este »

This seems like the opinions of someone who hasn't had a lot of experience with silencers. Like an amish guy trying to reinvent the automobile.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

este wrote:This seems like the opinions of someone who hasn't had a lot of experience with silencers. Like an amish guy trying to reinvent the automobile.
If you don't see how a silent handgun with no protruding muzzle device could have tactical benefit, more power to you. That opinion seems like it would belong to someone who can afford slow-drawing, off-balanced and heavy gun handling during a fight. Are you a silencer salesman?
Last edited by solitary.phoenix on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by doubloon »

Don't beat him down yet, every so often a savant comes out of nowhere and redefines a discipline stagnated with common knowledge and a list of things that "can't be done".

Wait until he fucks up then you can beat him down. :)
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

doubloon wrote:Don't beat him down yet, every so often a savant comes out of nowhere and redefines a discipline stagnated with common knowledge and a list of things that "can't be done".

Wait until he fucks up then you can beat him down. :)
I F--k up, down, sideways- etc. Not picky about my penetration angle. :mrgreen:

I honestly don't think that I have the knowledge or ability to produce something like these multi-platform multi-caliber captive piston cartridges. But I'm not selfish with my ideas. If something hits me out of the blue, I like to throw it out there and see what others think is feasible or practical. I may talk to a licensed silencer manufacturer that I know and see if he feels like tackling a prototype cartridge.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by Selectedmarksman »

Based on the before and after in the photo, I'd guess the piston is added before the neck is tapered/formed, and that these are only good for one shot. Not reloadable, so cost of the ammo would suck.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by LavaRed »

I almost did experiments about this with a 12 gauge shotgun round, with a threaded machined brass casing, ss piston, threaded retainer rings and steel-core slugs, but I hit a hitch when I didn't know what kind of powder to use, or how much of it, and finally I got too scared of blowing it up. So I ended up scrapping the components.

I'd only assembled 2 rounds before I scrapped everything.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

Selectedmarksman wrote:Based on the before and after in the photo, I'd guess the piston is added before the neck is tapered/formed, and that these are only good for one shot. Not reloadable, so cost of the ammo would suck.
It would most assuredly suck. If they could be mass produced, the cost would go down a bit. Perhaps a reloadable version could be created.
Dumping hundreds of these downrage in one day is not really what I would plan on creating them for- it's a specialized premium carry ammo.

Even so, I don't see how these could be cost effecient for high volume training. I like to train with the exact ammo that I intend to carry. With these, training itself would have to be done using conventional ammunition cartridges made to simulate the recoil impulse and accuracy of the original captive piston round that it's "cloned" from. Even then, thousands of rounds of specialized conventional ammunition are not going to be cheap either.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

LavaRed wrote:I almost did experiments about this with a 12 gauge shotgun round, with a threaded machined brass casing, ss piston, threaded retainer rings and steel-core slugs, but I hit a hitch when I didn't know what kind of powder to use, or how much of it, and finally I got too scared of blowing it up. So I ended up scrapping the components.

I'd only assembled 2 rounds before I scrapped everything.
That is actually a good idea. Sounds alot like TeleShot.

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/amm ... eshot.html

Yeah that's where I'm at too. If a working prototype was created from my drawings, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the first sucker to pull the trigger on it. I'm planning on a remote-fire setup.
All you have to do initially is rig up a way to safely test the function of the cartridge itself...then work on how to fit it to the firing platform of your choice.

Treat an untested load as if it were a bomb. Figure out how far away you need to be from it to be safe when it goes off in the event of catastrophic failure.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by JasonAAC »

we're also at the point where as you say, for actual combat use, I would not be comfortable with one or two rounds.

I personally think that captive piston rounds are and always will be a niche idea. cost, capacity, bullet speed/terminal effectiveness, etc.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

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JasonAAC wrote:we're also at the point where as you say, for actual combat use, I would not be comfortable with one or two rounds.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? I just woke up...so my reading comprehension may as of yet be a bit unformed.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by LavaRed »

solitary.phoenix wrote:
JasonAAC wrote:we're also at the point where as you say, for actual combat use, I would not be comfortable with one or two rounds.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? I just woke up...so my reading comprehension may as of yet be a bit unformed.
He prolly means that most weapons employing this mechanism are, by necesity, limited to one or two rounds. Also, I do believe these rounds would lack power compared to standard ammunition, so yeah, they are so far mostly confined to the niche of spycraft.

But if an improvement on these issues were to be made, they could very well have a wider range of applications no?
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

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solitary.phoenix wrote:
JasonAAC wrote:we're also at the point where as you say, for actual combat use, I would not be comfortable with one or two rounds.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? I just woke up...so my reading comprehension may as of yet be a bit unformed.
What Lava said mainly...

But I don't see the utility of a single shot weapon (captive piston guns are by design single shot- or side by side double chamber).
You specifically mentioned use in combat, and I think (and so do our forces that use such things) that the limited utility of a captive piston gun is much more of a hindrance than the extra weight and length of a can on a full-powered full-capacity gun.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

JasonAAC wrote:
solitary.phoenix wrote:
JasonAAC wrote:we're also at the point where as you say, for actual combat use, I would not be comfortable with one or two rounds.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? I just woke up...so my reading comprehension may as of yet be a bit unformed.
What Lava said mainly...

But I don't see the utility of a single shot weapon (captive piston guns are by design single shot- or side by side double chamber).
You specifically mentioned use in combat, and I think (and so do our forces that use such things) that the limited utility of a captive piston gun is much more of a hindrance than the extra weight and length of a can on a full-powered full-capacity gun.
Jason,

Here is the problem. I have never advocated the utility of a single shot weapon. Captive piston cartridge firing pistols are NOT single shot or even dual shot weapons by default. The OTS-38 Silent Revolver is by design, multi shot with 5 rounds of SP4. Take it a step further, the PSS is a single stack autoloader that offers 6 rounds of SP4. As for our forces- God bless them. But I would wager to bet that they have limited to zero experience with captive-piston cartridge firing weapons and would not be able to offer an opinion on an upgraded PSS style pistol. This is in no way meant to demean or insult their deadliness with the tools that they are provided with by our Military.

In transparency and honesty I will tell you that the terminal ballistics of SP4 are very limited. That particular cartridge's projectile flies at around 655 fps from the muzzle. This being said: Keep in mind what these pistols were designed for- as weapons of covert operation. They fired a 7.62 round at very low velocity for use on targets at close range. The wounds resulting would appear to be caused by a very distant shot from a longarm, hence the deteriorated anemic terminal performance. It was somewhat cleverly designed. These historic examples are covert, niche-designed Russian weapons from the Cold War Era. Beyond these archaic tools, we do not know what undisclosed, perhaps updated captive piston weapons are currently available to Russian operators.

I intend to enhance captive piston cartridge performance far beyond the roughly 655fps of SP4.

You may feel free to criticize this (SP4) cartridge's performance. It does not represent the future of Silent Ammunition Technology. It certainly is something that I would not use in self defense, or in a pistol based offense. But this is what I look to improve- otherwise I would simply work hard to replicate the PSS system exactly and proclaim my satisfaction with it- rather than what I am doing now. Remember that there was a time when arrows could be shot faster, farther and kill more effectively- with greater accuracy- than primitive single shot firearms. Do we still use bows and arrows as staple weapons today or laugh at the impractical puny handcannons? No. Ask someone during that time period if they would ever see firearms technology advance to the point that it is today...they most likely would laugh at you. If they were alive.

Yes, Silencers are beautiful. In my opinion, a centerfire pistol does not look complete without a badass suppressor attached to it's barrel. Yes, captive piston ammunition would be very expensive initially. Yes, archaic captive piston designs offered limited ballistic performance. But we aren't talking aesthetics, cost-effectivity, your ammunition budget or personal preference. We are talking about reaching out for a kind of excellence in the practicality of tactical weaponry that requires the sacrifice of our preconceived notions about what is and isn't possible, what is and isn't profitable, what is and isn't preferable.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

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solitary.phoenix wrote:....
If it's something you want to pursue by all means please do and let us all know how it is going.

Something like the PSS is a cool engineering product and would have limited but valuable clandestine use.

I think that my argument is more along the lines of captive piston-type ammo not replacing the majority of silenced weapons for the majority of uses.
Who knows? Not to stifle development, but more commenting on current states and current uses. Can it be developed further? sure.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by LavaRed »

It would be very interesting if captive piston cartidges could be developed that could be fired from traditional firearms without modification. I see great potential there. 12 gage shotguns are an ideal testbed because of the looser tolerances involved vis-a-vis regular rifles.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

JasonAAC wrote:
solitary.phoenix wrote:....
If it's something you want to pursue by all means please do and let us all know how it is going.

Something like the PSS is a cool engineering product and would have limited but valuable clandestine use.

I think that my argument is more along the lines of captive piston-type ammo not replacing the majority of silenced weapons for the majority of uses.
Who knows? Not to stifle development, but more commenting on current states and current uses. Can it be developed further? sure.
It's cool man, I know where you're coming from too. This kind of discussion is a "survival-of-the-fittest" sort of proving ground for ideas and theories. That's why I like to throw mine out for other people to chew on and ponder.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

LavaRed wrote:It would be very interesting if captive piston cartidges could be developed that could be fired from traditional firearms without modification. I see great potential there. 12 gage shotguns are an ideal testbed because of the looser tolerances involved vis-a-vis regular rifles.
I agree. 12 gauge is the perfect starter platform. Spent case extraction would be my main worry with modified CPCs being used in traditional, unmodified firearms. The PSS looks like it has a radical ejection mechanism/port. The longer the piston expansion, the better the ballistics- but the harder it becomes to "get it out". I'm tweaking ideas that would solve this problem without unnecessarily complicating my cartridge design or raising the cost per shot any further.
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by delta9mda »

KAC did this already with the revolver pistol and revolver rifle and they also had cans hanging on the end.

each round is considered a suppressor by atf
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Re: Captive Piston Technology

Post by solitary.phoenix »

delta9mda wrote:KAC did this already with the revolver pistol and revolver rifle and they also had cans hanging on the end.

each round is considered a suppressor by atf
Pictures? Details? ATF ruling?

I'm not asking in provocation- just wondering if you have any other info.
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