Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.

All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, mr fixit, bakerjw, renegade

User avatar
jimmym40a2
Elite Member
Posts: 2745
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 8:25 pm
Location: Colorado (for Mongo)

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by jimmym40a2 »

good to know!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEZJ_C4LwzA
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Bendersquint »

eastern_hunter wrote:Bender,

So it is OK to use SS pins in a Thumler Tumbler for SS baffles such as those in an Octane 9HD?

What pressure and media do you use for blasting SS baffles? I have a Cyclone blast cab that takes a fair amount of material to prime. Are 400 grit glass beads OK?
Yes you will be fine tumbling your OctaneHD baffles in SS media.

Glass beads won't do anything but pock the surface of the baffles making them a dull silver color. It won't damage the baffles, just don't use something like aluminum oxide as that could damage them.

400 grit will do the job, I prefer using around 200, seems to be quicker. I use from 25-35psi, gets the junk off without messing with the steel too much.
User avatar
Scoundrel
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Scoundrel »

Greetings. I'll go read the rules and post an intro in the new user section in a moment, but I came here via Google Search while "on a mission" so I want to reply here first.

I just picked up an Outback IID which has non-anodized aluminum baffles as has been noted by another posted. Please don't hate me because I bought a GemTech. I'm really a nice guy otherwise.

I'm not really interested in hours of scrubbing with a brush and mineral spirits, and I'm also not interested in running a sandblaster or soda blaster for an hour or two with a respirator stuck to my face like one of those things in Aliens.

I would like to clean my baffles in a tumbler, but am concerned about the cumulative damage (edges rounded) Bender is warning about.
Bender indicates that glass bead media won't damage the baffles.

So here is my question to anyone who wants to take a stab at it:
Can I use glass bead media in a wet tumbler (specifically, this one: http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/t ... eed-7.html), and would that do the job without damage?

Or, if not, what other method of using a wet tumbler like this would someone recommend?

Thank you for your time.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Bendersquint »

Scoundrel wrote:Greetings. I'll go read the rules and post an intro in the new user section in a moment, but I came here via Google Search while "on a mission" so I want to reply here first.

I just picked up an Outback IID which has non-anodized aluminum baffles as has been noted by another posted. Please don't hate me because I bought a GemTech. I'm really a nice guy otherwise.

I'm not really interested in hours of scrubbing with a brush and mineral spirits, and I'm also not interested in running a sandblaster or soda blaster for an hour or two with a respirator stuck to my face like one of those things in Aliens.

I would like to clean my baffles in a tumbler, but am concerned about the cumulative damage (edges rounded) Bender is warning about.
Bender indicates that glass bead media won't damage the baffles.

So here is my question to anyone who wants to take a stab at it:
Can I use glass bead media in a wet tumbler (specifically, this one: http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/t ... eed-7.html), and would that do the job without damage?

Or, if not, what other method of using a wet tumbler like this would someone recommend?

Thank you for your time.
When I said(my previous post) that glass beads will not damage the baffles it was in discussion about Octane2 stainless steel baffles. You need to read the entire posts when gleaning information so you know the context.

If you use glass beads on an aluminum surface you will damage it.

Glass beads in a water tumbler will still round your edges and damage the surface.

The TUMBLER action is what causes the damage from the media.

If you have a blast cabinet use walnut media for aluminum baffles, its the safest, but being over aggressive will cause damage as well.
User avatar
Scoundrel
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Scoundrel »

Sorry, missed that. It was nearly 2 AM and I came to it after a lot of searching and reading.

So to summarize what I have read here, several people have had good results and really liked the results of tumbling their baffles in SS pins, but there is a concern that this will eventually round the edges and damage the surface of the baffles. That part seems pretty "black and white".

Then I think we go into a more gray area: How much damage, after how many cleanings, with what duration of cleaning each time, using which media?
What result does that damage have? Is it cosmetic only? Will it prevent reassembly? Will it affect the acoustic properties of the device?

I am new to suppressors, and to tumbling/blasting, but not at all new to working with mechanical items of various types, and talking on the internet forums related to these items. In every single case, one will find people saying "just do this, it will be fine", and the other end of the spectrum predicting doom and gloom. Sometimes, but only sometimes, you get people in the middle who are willing to look at the shades of gray and say "that will be OK if you do it this way and you do it this often".

I once seized a piston in a 1:8 radio control car. I obtained a new piston and rod. The guys on the forum told me that if I didn't also replace the cylinder, the crank, the head, and basically the whole motor, it would rip up the new piston/rod in short order. They said this with certainty, without seeing good photos of the parts. I risked it, and that R/C car ran great for years afterward.

So, to draw another example, if someone tumbled their aluminum baffles a couple of times a month after shooting 200 rounds of clean-burning CCI through it, and they ran it for only 4 hours, that might take quite a while for the cumulative damage to have any real measurable impact. But if someone shoots 200 rounds per day, twice a week, using some nasty Federal value pack or that nasty smelling Aguila stuff that seems to produce a lot of residue, and they left the thing on overnight every time, it might be a significantly shorter period of time before the damage gets bad enough to cause issues.

So, these questions are directed to those folks who have been doing this with the aluminum baffles:
1. Have you noticed any damage?
2. How many times have you cleaned your baffles this way?
3. What media do you use?


I am going to contact GemTech on Monday and ask them about their experience/opinions with tumbling, about replacement cost for the aluminum baffles, and about cost for obtaining a set of SS baffles. I wouldn't mind the extra weight, and it seems that I'd be better off with those for regular use. I'll store my aluminum set nearly brand new for when I want a lighter setup.
Last edited by Scoundrel on Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Bendersquint »

As a manufacturer I will not recommend doing anything besides walnut blastings, you have been warned.

How much damage? Enough to make you concerned with suppression.

After how many cleanings? 1x 2 hour session caused damage on a test set of baffles and they were anodized.

Using SS pins, glass beads can't be used for tumbling.

Damage removed the anozing, smooths all the sharp edges and actually opened the bore up.

Won't prevent disassembly as it will make a looser fit.

Yes it will affect the suppression as some cans thrive on their sharp surfaces to aid in suppression.

If you tumbled it for 4 hours at a time several times a month our edges would all be removed and the dimensions would change.

1 - Yes I have noticed damage, I have tested this with several stacks, different materials and durations.
2 - I only cleaned the baffles like this for testing so I could post results here, I walnut blast aluminum baffles and bead blast SS baffles.
3 - Stainless steel pins and brass pins

If Gemtech upgrades your baffles you can't keep the aluminum baffles, you can only have 1 set of baffles per silencer.
User avatar
Scoundrel
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Scoundrel »

Well, crap.

Didn't know about the "1 set of baffles per" thing. That's kind of annoying, but I suppose that's dictated by the government or something.

How much would a sandblasting shop charge to clean these for me? Or, are there some restrictions about them needing to be an NFA manufacturer in order to legally clean baffles?

I'm starting to lean more toward not cleaning it at all and getting it rebuilt with SS baffles after 20,000 rounds or so. But GemTech says their rebuild service is on hold. They're having lead disposal issues and told me to call back in 3 months to see how that's going, and that I should clean my can in the meantime while I wait to hear how that turns out. They were not specific as to what those lead disposal issues were, and I didn't ask.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Bendersquint »

Scoundrel wrote:Well, crap.

Didn't know about the "1 set of baffles per" thing. That's kind of annoying, but I suppose that's dictated by the government or something.

How much would a sandblasting shop charge to clean these for me? Or, are there some restrictions about them needing to be an NFA manufacturer in order to legally clean baffles?

I'm starting to lean more toward not cleaning it at all and getting it rebuilt with SS baffles after 20,000 rounds or so. But GemTech says their rebuild service is on hold. They're having lead disposal issues and told me to call back in 3 months to see how that's going, and that I should clean my can in the meantime while I wait to hear how that turns out. They were not specific as to what those lead disposal issues were, and I didn't ask.
Yes that is a Federal thing, a non-manufacturer can't have extra silencer parts.

If the "sandblasting shop" takes it into their possession they need a FFL/SOT.

You will need it rebuilt far sooner than 20,000 rounds, most of the 22lr's we get in that we rebuild/recore have alot less than that and we can't salvage the baffles due to lead buildup.

Lead disposal issues? That's a new one.
User avatar
Scoundrel
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Scoundrel »

I'm always a little skeptical when someone has almost exclusively negative things to say, particularly when one of those things contradicts the manual from the manufacturer, which states "after approximately 20,000 rounds, buildup in the suppressor does decrease performance". No mention is made of salvaging the baffles - at that point it's all new parts except the outer tube with the serial number on it. Once again, I suppose there may be some gray area. You say that a rebuild would become necessary after far less than 20,000 rounds - but what is the deciding factor for a rebuild becoming necessary? An increase of 0.05 dB? Perhaps 3 dB? Or as much as 10 dB?

The manufacturer recommends against bead or sand blasting. Soda blasting is considered acceptable, but a decent soda blasting setup is several hundred dollars (more with a blasting cabinet), and I'm finding all kinds of negative nellies talking about the pitfalls of soda blasting (media getting clumped up due to moisture, media clogging the machine because the compressor generates too much moisture, having to continually tap the tank to keep the media flowing, etc. I have a compressor, but it's a small crappy one that can barely run an impact wrench. I use it for inflating tires and running a staple gun, mostly. I don't run a machine shop, and cannot justify allocating an entire section of my garage and a thousand+ dollars in blasting equipment to clean one $300 suppressor.

I suppose that soaking the baffle in mineral spirits, then scrubbing them with a brush also damages them.
I suppose that sneezing on them also damages them.

Why isn't anyone else responding with their experience?
What other options are there?


Just to be 100% clear: Stainless steel baffles + rotary tumbler + stainless steel pin media + Dawn detergent + Lemi-Shine + regular 4-hour tumbling sessions = A-OK?
User avatar
Scoundrel
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Scoundrel »

What kind of aluminum was used in the ones that showed damage after tumbling? Was it 7075 aluminum alloy, or something weaker?

Also, I do appreciate the time you've taken to write up your responses (and I hope some more people will chime in).

If I sounded a bit frustrated with that last post, well, it's because I am. Partly at myself for not doing this research BEFORE purchase, because perhaps I could have spent a little more and gotten a can with stainless baffles. But, it was my first can, and I was concentrating more on the process of getting it than I was about cleaning it afterward.


I think my plan at this point is going to be to soak it with mineral spirits and brush/scrape it Gunzilla without putting too much elbow grease into it, to try and keep the build-up under control to some extent. When it gets too bad, and I start having trouble removing the baffles or I am not happy with the sound reduction anymore, I'll send it back to the MFG for a rebuild with stainless baffles.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Bendersquint »

When you ask about negative side effects don't be surprised when someone tells you about negative side effects.

I am sorry that you are skeptical about my advice. I am a manufacturer and do this for a living. I service cans from just about all the manufacturers on a daily basis I am just trying to help based on my experience and testing. I assume that since you are brand new to the board that you just don't know who on this board is reliable or not.

What your original manufacturer says versus reality does not line up. The 20K before you loose performance is a joke, especially when my customers tell me their cans are a lot louder than when they bought it and most of them have less than 10K through it that has to say something.

Generally the deciding factor for a rebuild is if we can not remove the impacted lead on the baffles from the facial features. When the faces are solid lead they aren't aiding in suppression, hence why they say it gets louder. If a flat plate was sufficient for the level of suppression desired then they wouldn't put all the other features on it.

We have a can in right now with 14K documented subsonic's through it and we have to bore the baffles out as a 5 ton press won't budge the baffles, when we test fired it(at the customers recommendation) it hurt our ears. It also weighs almost 3 times what it did originally from the manufacturer.

This is a picture of a 22lr baffle after it was hit with aluminum oxide trying to get it cleaned to show how bad it was. We used AO after the decision to rebuild was made by the customer, the swirl on it is from a grinder. The customer swears that it had no more than 11K through it as he documents his shooting habit.

Image

This is how it should look. (9mm baffle but same design and manufacturer)
Image

See the trench? Without that trench the very same baffle stack is painful to the ears.

Soda blasting is a good method but if you are too aggressive it will damage the baffles, albeit slower than bead blast or other medias. Just take it slow and you will be fine

An awesome soda blasting setup will run you at max $500, nowhere near a thousand plus dollars.

I have left baffles in mineral spirits for months and they are really no easier to clean than before, mineral spirits in my experience doesn't do much with lead.

I am not aware of sneezing causing any negative affects to baffles.

Others probably aren't responding because they don't have anything to add or don't have the experience because they don't want to test these things on their valued investments is my guess. I can test to my hearts content and I do. The more I can do testing the better I can help out my customers and board members.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Bendersquint »

Scoundrel wrote:What kind of aluminum was used in the ones that showed damage after tumbling? Was it 7075 aluminum alloy, or something weaker?
7075 aluminum showed damage after tumbling, we won't even talk about 6061.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Bendersquint »

Scoundrel wrote:Just to be 100% clear: Stainless steel baffles + rotary tumbler + stainless steel pin media + Dawn detergent + Lemi-Shine + regular 4-hour tumbling sessions = A-OK?
Yes, that is fine. No need for the lemi-shine though, won't do anything for the baffles. Lemi-shine is used for tumbling brass to eliminate waterspots because brass needs to look good!
User avatar
Scoundrel
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:24 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Scoundrel »

Bendersquint wrote:When you ask about negative side effects don't be surprised when someone tells you about negative side effects.
This is of course true and self-evident. But I'm sure that you have noticed also that in the eyes of some people, their way and only their way is acceptable, and nothing else is even worth looking at. I'm not saying I see you at that extreme level of negativity, I'm just stretching it to an extreme to illustrate. Maybe there is no easy and fairly cheap way to clean these aluminum baffles thoroughly, and the "scrub/scrape/rebuild when it gets too bad" is the best thing.
Bendersquint wrote: I am sorry that you are skeptical about my advice. I am a manufacturer and do this for a living. I service cans from just about all the manufacturers on a daily basis I am just trying to help based on my experience and testing. I assume that since you are brand new to the board that you just don't know who on this board is reliable or not.
I don't mean to cast aspersions on your experience. Sometimes when I am uncertain that I am getting the whole picture, and push back a little, more information comes out that can be helpful. You're absolutely right that it takes some extended interactions on forums before it becomes clear who really knows their stuff, and who just has strong opinions.
Bendersquint wrote:What your original manufacturer says versus reality does not line up. The 20K before you loose performance is a joke, especially when my customers tell me their cans are a lot louder than when they bought it and most of them have less than 10K through it that has to say something.
Sigh. I guess I will have to "bite the bullet" and clean it, one way or another. With the amount of money I make, the $300 for a new can is not really an issue for me. I would happily pay $300 for a suppressor, put 10k rounds through it until it starts to get noisy, and then throw it away and buy a new one - if it weren't for the ridiculous $200 tax stamp and the six-month wait (for me, this time, it was exactly six months - submitted Feb 17, approved Aug 15, recvd Aug 22 - I understand that the backlog is somewhat reduced now and they're starting happening faster than that here).
Bendersquint wrote: Soda blasting is a good method but if you are too aggressive it will damage the baffles, albeit slower than bead blast or other medias. Just take it slow and you will be fine
An awesome soda blasting setup will run you at max $500, nowhere near a thousand plus dollars.
I guess I'll fall back on this if scrape/scrub isn't allowing me to keep up with the build-up. Can the soda blast "catch up" if I let it build up for a while, or is it the sort of thing where it has to be done right from the start to maintain it?

You say an awesome soda blasting setup can be had for $500. Does that include the compressor (probably the most expensive part)? I have doubts about the ability of my compressor to produce enough air in CFM. It was a $100 Harbor Freight special. I looked at better ones when I was considering throwing some paint, and they were not cheap.
Bendersquint wrote:
Scoundrel wrote:Just to be 100% clear: Stainless steel baffles + rotary tumbler + stainless steel pin media + Dawn detergent + Lemi-Shine + regular 4-hour tumbling sessions = A-OK?
Yes, that is fine. No need for the lemi-shine though, won't do anything for the baffles. Lemi-shine is used for tumbling brass to eliminate waterspots because brass needs to look good!
Well, that will save a few bucks I suppose. Any drawback to adding the Lemi-shine to make them shiny? Might be worth the $10 bottle for pride of ownership (ooh, shiny!).
I hear that having a little bit of build-up can actually make the suppressor quieter, and it's only when it starts building too much that you start losing performance. I guess this could make sense to me in the same way a pistol "breaks in" and then runs very well with the sharp edges rounded out a bit, until it's too much wear and it starts getting sloppy.


I like to research these things into the ground sometimes, and perhaps I take it too far. I'm like a data sponge on occasion. So if you get annoyed with the level of my questioning, just stop responding.
gr8smiles
Silent Operator
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:09 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by gr8smiles »

Thanks for all the info on this. I bought the kit from Stainless Media last week. It arrived yesterday. I went home and set it up and ran a cycle to clean the media real well. After that, I put my Element baffles, the SS Sparrow core, the Sparrow clam shells, the blast baffle from my Tirant 45 and my Evo9 (both of which were beautifully jailbroken by BenderSquint.. :mrgreen: ) and I also threw in my pistons from the Evo9, Tirant 45, and Osprey45. Ran them all a couple hours. Decided to run them all night while I slept.

Looked this am before work and they were all spotless and shiny :mrgreen:
This is awesome.
Thanks and much cleaner than dipping for me.
User avatar
twodollarbill
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:25 pm
Location: wisconsin

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by twodollarbill »

gr8smiles wrote: Decided to run them all night while I slept.
I've been running mine for 2 hours and drain off the dirty water/soap.
Run another hour with fresh water/soap and internals are perfect.
But then again I only have 500 to 800 rounds on them.
huanab
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:28 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by huanab »

Sorry to ressurrect this thread, but I placed an order for some ss media. In the mean time, I have a bunch of steel BBs laying around and was wondering if they would essentialy do the same thing as far as cleaning suppressors go?
buckgunner
Silent Operator
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:51 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by buckgunner »

I don't think that the BB's will clean as well as the pins. The pins get into all of the nooks and crannies. The BB's are round and won't do as good of a job in the corners.
Joker31D
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:45 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by Joker31D »

BB's dont work on brass, tried it before in a friends setup (Haven't taken the plunge myself yet) so I borrow his, bring over a 12 pack to offset his time and BS while they are cleaning (I only use his tumbler on my match brass and my expensive stuff (338 LM etc) but the pins, youll never look back, buying mine next month, gonna miss hanging out at his house though. :lol:
Visit my Wounded Hunter Project Blog!
https://woundedhunterproject.wordpress.com/

It has a beard and its climbing mountains ... it must be a billy goat! wait, it has a Rifle!
huanab
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:28 am

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by huanab »

I figured what the hell, the ss pellets aren't here yet. Threw my baffles in with some BBs, water and drop of dish soap for 4 hours. Turned out better than expected. Got most of the carbon and lead off except the thickest layers (It's had well over 600 rounds since I last cleaned it). It polish away at the layers as I could tell they weren't as thick anymore. I'll keep shooting it for now and the next time it needs a cleaning, my ss pellets should be here so I don't have to use the BBs.
User avatar
jimmym40a2
Elite Member
Posts: 2745
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 8:25 pm
Location: Colorado (for Mongo)

Re: Using stainless/brass media to clean baffles.

Post by jimmym40a2 »

Its been 7 years. How are people doing with the long term effects of SS media cleaning?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEZJ_C4LwzA
Post Reply