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 Post subject: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Lets say I line up six or so tires (forming a barrel of tires if you will) and shoot through the center opening with the muzzle just inside. This will of course muffle the report of the firearm. Would such a set up meet this ATF definition?

National Firearms Act Definitions
Silencer

26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(7)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Silencer is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24)

The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/impo ... encer.html


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:22 pm 
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L1A1Rocker wrote:
portable firearm

Is the key here.
There is no way that you would be able to carry the tires of afix them to the weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:54 pm 
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The ATF says no. Months ago I was trying to install a noise abatement device at my local rifle range. WA state law (RCW 9.41.250c) bans the use of any device that suppresses firearm noise. It is a very broad statute that does not specify attached (silencers) devices or other things. I was trying to obtain the WA AG's opinion on the matter to reduce the risk of arrest while using a shooting box. My legislator requested that I obtain the ATF opinion on the matter to ensure that federal law did not consider a shooting box (or tires) to be a silencer. Since federal law states a silencer is a device used on a portable firearm, but says nothing about the construction of the actual silencer, I needed clarification.

The short answer is that the BATFE says a row of tires is not a silencer according to federal law.

Image

I was eventually able to get the WA AG to say that use of a shooting box is not prohibited either. :)

Ranb

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Think of how many children will be in danger as the result of you using tires to cut the noise factor.

I can't believe you even had the gaul to ask, have you no concern for the children sir?

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Kinda the same thing. This one doesn't look very portable and I have no idea how effective it would be, but we all know what it is. Do they make subsonic 155mm rounds?
Image

It may be a photoshopped image for all I know.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:10 pm 
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ranb wrote:
The ATF says no. Months ago I was trying to install a noise abatement device at my local rifle range. WA state law (RCW 9.41.250c) bans the use of any device that suppresses firearm noise. It is a very broad statute that does not specify attached (silencers) devices or other things. I was trying to obtain the WA AG's opinion on the matter to reduce the risk of arrest while using a shooting box. My legislator requested that I obtain the ATF opinion on the matter to ensure that federal law did not consider a shooting box (or tires) to be a silencer. Since federal law states a silencer is a device used on a portable firearm, but says nothing about the construction of the actual silencer, I needed clarification.

The short answer is that the BATFE says a row of tires is not a silencer according to federal law.

Image

I was eventually able to get the WA AG to say that use of a shooting box is not prohibited either. :)

Ranb


Thanks Very Much for your work on that, Ranb...
I Recall the Original Posts On This, And How 'Bizarre' It All Was!
Guys Like You That Really Follow Through, And Not Just Piss And Moan....Should Be Applauded By The Gun Owners Of America!
Kudos To You!

WYOGUY

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Is there a way you can open carry it?

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:29 pm 
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JasonAAC wrote:
Is there a way you can open carry it?


That Clearly Depends On Just How Big Of An Asshole We're Talking About...

:lol:

WYOGUY

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:51 pm 
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wyoguy wrote:
JasonAAC wrote:
Is there a way you can open carry it?


That Clearly Depends On Just How Big Of An Asshole We're Talking About...


Ask kwikrnu, I'm sure he's working on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Not a bad idea. I have a lot of private land with some neighbors nearby and that would be a good setup for sighting in guns that don't use a silencer. I would be interested to know more about your setup when you figure out what works best (how many tires, or if there is something better then tires).


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:41 pm 
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I know a old rancher that has his own 100 yrd range that used six big truck tires in a row filled with the spray foam
insulation and it works great.
The other ranchers used to bitch about the noise before he used the tire suppressor now they dont.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:55 pm 
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If you dont want to use tires then a large diameter sono tube like the 48" then some chicken wire fence rolled into a tube about 24" in diameter with the spray insulation works good and it wont weigh that much so it could be moved easy if needed.
Stand the sono tube on end then place the fence roll in the middle and fill in between the fence and the outer tube making
a giant muffler.
Same thing as the tires but much less weight, but the bigger the bang = the longer the tube is needed sorta like a can
but because of the larger bore it needs to be longer to catch the bang.
http://www.concreteacc.com/index_files/Page1166.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Wasn't there a famous robbery where the thieves used something on the order of a 20mm Lathi to shot through the bank vault door and they fired it thru an oil drum to muzzle the report. If I recall Machine Gun News covered it a lifetime ago.
Now with the price of oil it is probably a no go but perhaps a drum filled with water with an offset hole aka Osprey style set up on a fixed mount could work.

I have used 50 gallon drums for sale!
Buy 2 get 3rd free while supplies last
Free shipping within 50 feet
No NFA TAX
All sales final, no refunds
Disclaimer-liquid contents unknown
Image


:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:18 pm 
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Be aware though that it will still be loud to the shooter, so if you're shooting a large center-fire wear muffs.

Quote:
Wasn't there a famous robbery where the thieves used something on the order of a 20mm Lathi to shot through the bank vault door and they fired it thru an oil drum to muzzle the report.


That was from a Clint Eastwood movie, "Thunderbolt and Lightfoot" if I'm not mistaken.

The navy was having complaints from some Island near where their practice range was located so they clamped 55 gal. oil drums to the muzzles of their artillery and lined the drums with grease and the complaints stopped.
This was a while back so I forget the name of the place.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:26 am 
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I have an old thermos bottle that I shoot thru when test firing pistols. it quiets them good enough that the neighbors don't complain

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:03 pm 
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blaster wrote:
I have an old thermos bottle that I shoot thru when test firing pistols. it quiets them good enough that the neighbors don't complain


It would seem like you could only do that ONCE ?

:lol:

WYOGUY

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:11 pm 
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[quote="Hush"]
That was from a Clint Eastwood movie, "Thunderbolt and Lightfoot" if I'm not mistaken.

Are you saying I have turned a Hollywood movie into reality in my head :shock:
Everything tells me I remember reading it and it had pictures but I just looked through every old MGN and SAR I have
and could not find it. Perhaps I am losing it


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:55 pm 
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on one of the ranges I regularly use due to noise complaints from newly built properties we quietened down the noise by shooting through blue polypropylene barrels lined with eggshell type foam. A short piece of wood 2"x"2 is bolted to the bottom of the drum to stop it rolling. They are light and can easily be carried from their storage or to various firing points as required. Drums are kept at 200 and 300yd firing points. Firing points on this range are 100, 200, 300 and 500yds. For up to 1200yds I use another range.

The above does direct the noise forward towards the targets and complaints have stopped as we have been seen to try to do something about the issue, it's also the perfect excuse to have a silencer for each rifle.

The one draw back that the design has is that if using a muzzle brake the foam tends to slowly break up spraying particles over the rifle, or if the glue looses adhesion the foam can be forced forward out of the drum if using larger calibres. Overall they are effective if the muzzle of the gun is put in about 12".

I like the comment above about chicken wire and spray foam, this may go some way to reducing the issues mentioned but as we have just replaced the foam it could be a couple of years before replacement is required again. Generally smoke-poles and silenced rifles are not shot through the barrels.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Cool pic!


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:53 pm 
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CThomas wrote:
Hush wrote:
That was from a Clint Eastwood movie, "Thunderbolt and Lightfoot" if I'm not mistaken.

Are you saying I have turned a Hollywood movie into reality in my head :shock:
Everything tells me I remember reading it and it had pictures but I just looked through every old MGN and SAR I have
and could not find it. Perhaps I am losing it


Or it could be that the people who wrote the movie got the idea from reading the article.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001547O7W/ref=atv_feed_catalog&tag=imdb-amazonvideo-20

Its near the middle to end of the above movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072288/

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:53 pm 
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stevejobs wrote:
Cool pic!


If it was the barrel pic you were referring to steve, then more can be seen at the link below, the 500yd range is used regularly by three local clubs and is rented to other clubs from outwith the area to defray costs. Being a member of two of the local clubs I can shoot here on occasion up to three times a week, it's only 15-20minutes from my door. Have seen people shoot black powder pistol from the hundred yard firing point, Smoke poles and lever guns are popular as well, some guys shoot .50 Sharps from the 500yd with good results. For BP pistols, long barrel revolver, long barrel auto pistol and lever guns we mainly use the nearby Navy bases pistol range which is full bore certified, good for chronying target rifles etc, we also have a smallbore indoor range.

I think tyres would provide better sound damping but would have to be left insitu. It maybe the case that the barrels will be done away with as it has long been proven that the main complainants property actually suffers more noise from the highway than the range but in the interest of being good neighbours we try to reduce the noise, almost everybody has silenced rifles anyway if they want to us them.

http://www.fifecentrefire.org.uk/

The 1200yd range is about somewhere between an hour and half away and is generally acknowledged to be perhaps the second most tricky range in the world due to the wind conditions created by the hills, the foremost windy range is in New Zealand, the name escapes me at the moment. The electronic scoring systems make competitions more interesting for spectators who can watch what is happening, I believe the US F Class team is due over shortly to shoot again.

http://www.westatholl.org.uk/

Image of the range layout below.

Image


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 Post subject: Neat photos Steve
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:19 am 
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That part of the UK looks alot like the coast range foothills in the Willamette Valley in Oregon USA.

I have seen tires (tyres?!) used for this purpiose by banding them will steel straps of the sort used for banding goods to pallets.

The tires were 14" wheel size with a small tire on each end (like from an old mini).

They were stacked vertically and compressed against the ground with a front end loader before being banded (straps were inserted before compression).

These were used in static positions and worked pretty well.

Sorry, but I do not have any pictures. It was actually nice for the other firing positions not to have someone's brake running in the next position.

I have thought a stout piece of plywood on each end with a vertical slot for the ingress and egress would be a nice idea for this as well.


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 Post subject: Neat photos Steve
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:19 am 
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That part of the UK looks alot like the coast range foothills in the Willamette Valley in Oregon USA.

I have seen tires (tyres?!) used for this purpiose by banding them will steel straps of the sort used for banding goods to pallets.

The tires were 14" wheel size with a small tire on each end (like from an old mini).

They were stacked vertically and compressed against the ground with a front end loader before being banded (straps were inserted before compression).

These were used in static positions and worked pretty well.

Sorry, but I do not have any pictures. It was actually nice for the other firing positions not to have someone's brake running in the next position.

I have thought a stout piece of plywood on each end with a vertical slot for the ingress and egress would be a nice idea for this as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:08 pm 
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I knew I was not crazy as I found the old MGN mag in another stack of old ones.

Below is a picture taken from an article written by Carl Silver that appeared in the Oct 1995 issue of Machine Gun News about the Lahti Model 39.
Quoting from the article
"An M39 with Oil Drum Suppressor was constructed by vault burglars in Quebec and recovered on convent property. It is also possible that the same gun was used in the Rochester, New York Brinks burglary, as a water-soaked mattress (muzzle dampener) was found at the crime scene".
(This is for you Hush)
These crimes may have fuled the story line for the 1974 movie: Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting through a row of tires = silencer?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:18 pm 
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Right, go back about five posts to another post of mine and you will find the url to the movie where it shows them using it.

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