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 Post subject: Bolt Action: 300 Whisper vs. 45ACP
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:01 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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I'm contemplating getting or building a new bolt action ; what are the relative merits and problems of the 300 Whisper (subsonic) vs. the 45 ACP?

I understand that bullet shape can make a difference in ballistics at high speeds, but at speeds <=1000fps, does it really matter that the 300 Whisper is a spitzer or spire and the 45ACP is a relatively flat roundnose?

Does anybody use supersonic cartridges in their 300 Whisper? If so, why not just get a .308 Win bolt action? Subsonic loads can be bought or made for .308 Win and ammunition is more readily available...

FWIW, I do not have anything in 308, 300 whisper, or 45ACP at this time.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:10 am 
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Silent But Deadly

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The Whisper is much more difficult to reload (and find factory ammo for) than .45acp.

The Whisper retains velocity at longer distances better than .45, but they will both have a rainbow trajectory.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:55 am 
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I have looked at this question as well. Since I don't see myself doing much other then playing at the range (out to 100 yrds) I decided to do the .45 ACP, cheap factory ammo, cheaper reloading kit if you really want to reload, and potentially a cheaper rifle depending on what route you go. I have been distracted by picking up a Ruger 77/44 .44 Magnum bolt action and will get that suppressed before I move on the .45 ACP project but down the road I still plan on doing it.
If you want a bolt action you are looking at a Mauser or Enfield conversion in .45 ACP (at least on the lower price end) where the 300 Whisper gives you more action options.
If you are planning on a dual purpose rifle to also hunt with then 300 Whisper makes more sense, if you are looking for the absolute best accuracy and range the 300 should do better, but if this is just a play toy there is much to say for .45 ACP.
Really it depends on what you are using it for, how much you want to spend up front, and how much you want to spend to shoot after you buy it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:57 am 
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Silent But Deadly

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300SMK's out of a 338 Spectre are worth looking at.

For ease of reloading, the 30HRT would be the way to go.

Both really require reloading if you shoot much and pay for your own ammunition. If I was a "secret squirrel" for Uncle Sam, ammo cost wouldn't be an issue and I would shoot cases of 338 Spectre.

In bolt actions, you can choose from so many wildcats and factory options that I would focus on the projectile (diameter, weight, B.C.) and velocity I wanted first.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:05 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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Sid Post wrote:
300SMK's out of a 338 Spectre are worth looking at.

For ease of reloading, the 30HRT would be the way to go.

Both really require reloading if you shoot much and pay for your own ammunition. If I was a "secret squirrel" for Uncle Sam, ammo cost wouldn't be an issue and I would shoot cases of 338 Spectre.

In bolt actions, you can choose from so many wildcats and factory options that I would focus on the projectile (diameter, weight, B.C.) and velocity I wanted first.


Tell me more about 30 HRT ? It seems like cases for that would be harder to get than for 300 Whisper ?

If I were a secret squirrel, I would shoot cases of 510 Whisper or 50 Whisper ...

But I'm not.

And as for the .45, I had been considering in addition to the Mauser/Enfield conversion getting the Delisle Commando Carbine. Does anyone have anything negative on that ? The psuedo-historical part is neat.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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The .30 HRT is basically a rimless version of the .30 Herret cartridge designed for the TC Contender. Where the .30 Herret uses a .30-30 Winchester as its parent case, the .30 HRT uses a .30 Remington case. By the way, HRT stands for Herret Rimless Tactical. To make the cases, get some .30 Herret case forming dies for RCBS and stuff .30 Remington brass into them. AR15barrels.com makes barrels for this caliber.

Jeff


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:51 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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.30 Herrett Rimless Tactical (30 HRT) by teppo jutsu

With the development of the 6.8 x 43 SPC a new source of brass, bolts and magazines became available for wildcatting the AR platform. After looking at the host cartridge dimensions as well as reviewing a customer's feedback on a 300 Whisper® upper from SSK Industries, we came to the conclusion that the late Steve Herrett had already done all the leg work for us in his .30 Herrett.

The 30 Herrett is a rimmed cartridge based on the .30-30 Winchester, necked back and with a sharper shoulder angle. Developed for use in pistols with barrels as short as 10 inches (25 cm), it develops the same power as a .30-30 with greater efficiency and less muzzle blast.

By using the existing reamer and dies for the .30 Herrett and the 6.8 x 43 brass, bolts and magazines, the AR-15 can now be chambered in the rimless version of this established wildcat. As the picture shows, hardly any trimming is needed, and the resulting case offers more case capacity with the same flexibility as the 300 Whisper®. This means that standard gas systems can be used across the spectrum of high velocity and subsonic loadings, including shorter barreled uppers and suppressed versions. It essentially solves the problem with the gas system while retaining magazine capacity. (it requires the use of dedicated 6.8x43 magazines which hold lesser number of rounds then .223 mags for same size)

The key advantage the .30 HRT offers over the 6.8 mm is flexibility due to the wide range of .30 calibre bullets available. These range from the 110 grain (7.1g) Hornady V-Max (as shown in the photo; at about 2,700 fps - 820 m/s) up to 240 grain (15.6g) Sierra Hollow Point Boat Tail, loaded to subsonic velocities to rival the specialist 300 Whisper cartridge for silenced sniping rifles. Case length is 40.8 mm, rim and body diameter 10.6 mm, neck diameter 8.3 mm. The .30 Remington was the parent case for the 6.8 SPC wildcart that Remington has now parented.

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edit to add - Jeff your a faster typer than I am :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Bolt Action: 300 Whisper vs. 45ACP
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:57 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Mr_Psmith wrote:
Does anybody use supersonic cartridges in their 300 Whisper? If so, why not just get a .308 Win bolt action? Subsonic loads can be bought or made for .308 Win and ammunition is more readily available...


Does anyone want to address this particular issue, viz., why not just get a 308 ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:03 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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Location: Arizona, USA
The 30HRT uses 6.8SPC cases and fits in the AR-15 platform. It bridges the 300 Whisper to 308Winchester gap. It's not the best subsonic or supersonic but, it can do either from an AR-15. Bolts, cases, reloading components, etc. are all easy to get (or make with the case).

With 308 Winchesters shooting subsonic is certainly possible but, you have a bigger heavier rifle then needed if that is your primary goal. Your better off with a dedicated subsonic round if that's what you really want to use most of the time.

30HRT hits the sweet spot for me with a good balance of ballistic options, light rifle weight, and the convenience offered in an AR-15.

In a dedicated bolt gun, there are plenty of options that are as good or better that are true wildcats.


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 Post subject: Re: Bolt Action: 300 Whisper vs. 45ACP
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:15 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Mr_Psmith wrote:
I'm contemplating getting or building a new bolt action ; what are the relative merits and problems of the 300 Whisper (subsonic) vs. the 45 ACP?

I understand that bullet shape can make a difference in ballistics at high speeds, but at speeds <=1000fps, does it really matter that the 300 Whisper is a spitzer or spire and the 45ACP is a relatively flat roundnose?

Does anybody use supersonic cartridges in their 300 Whisper? If so, why not just get a .308 Win bolt action? Subsonic loads can be bought or made for .308 Win and ammunition is more readily available...

FWIW, I do not have anything in 308, 300 whisper, or 45ACP at this time.


I have 300 whisper on an AR platform which the only part different is the barrel - uses cheap mags/parts etc and functions semi auto!
- the major advantage is that you get both High velocity 7.62x39 type performance and the Quiet 30 caliber heavy bullet subsonic (240 SMK or 220 SMK) that retains the velocity better than the 45 caliber bullet for longer distance shooting.

You'll find that your not going to get expansion with those bullets but if the target is thick enough the bullet will swap ends which does create a good wound. I'm currently doing research for 308 subsonic in hopes of finding one that will cycle either HK, FAL or M14 but I've been told not hold my breath. :roll:

I also have 45 caliber autoloader with a can and I honestly think for close in shooting it has more effect.

You are correct that 300 whisper isn't found at the Big Box store like 45 ACP is, not hard to make if you handload - just need dies and 221 fireball brass - more work to make them out of .223/5.56 brass but can be done.

I've been counciled by several people to research 7.62x39 as host for 30 caliber subsonic ammo and see they are offering 154 gr bullet loads but nothing subsonic yet.

As for building bolt gun in 45acp, I see stuff advertized but haven't see much out at the range - 90% vaporware it seems to me, but if you can perserver I'm sure you'd be happy with it for close range work.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:27 pm 
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300 whisper is a blast. Shoots subsonic very well, and full bore loads with 125 Nosler Ballistic tips run in the 2250fps range. Great for ground squirrels and coyotes out to the 250yrd mark. I've built several on 700sa remington. I usually make the barrel just over minimum length so the finished rifle with the suppressor is about the same length as a standard rifle. If you have a .308 use it, if not the Whisper is a great cartridge.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:35 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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I have a 14" contender barrel in 300 Whisper and what little shooting I've done has been with 125 grain ballistics tips for deer hunting (all super sonic loads). I haven't had a chance to play with any subsonic loads. Yes, it was a PITA when I first tried to form brass. On the other hand, I just built a bolt .45 ACP based on a 98 Mauser. I turned my barrel from a Shilen blank instead of using the Rhineland Arms kit (which I believe uses a Shaw barrel). It's a single shot right now as I'm waiting on a Rhineland Arms magazine conversion kit. As soon as it warms up, I'll try and shoot some groups on paper, but it seems to like the Winchester WINCLEAN 230 gr. BEB ammo.

Jeff


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:46 pm 
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I've been debating this same issue, and still don't know which way I'll go. Another option to throw on the table is for an off the shelf 7.62 x 39 rifle like the CZ-527, and shoot the new EBR 7.62 x 39 Jackhammer 220 grain subsonic round. I've read good things about the accuracy with this round in AR based platforms. The downside is the cost, at about a buck a round.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:11 pm 
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for a bolt gun myself I'd say 7.62x39 is the way to go but for Auto 300 whisper seems like better way to me. But what do I know :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:17 am 
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What is the cost of the 300 Whisper rounds? I never looked into but I would assume they are around a buck a round as well.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:38 am 
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I thought about this, but really... the best way to go is an integral 77/44 with 300 grn .44mag. Nothing is quieter, or more potent, for the money.

I like the concept of the 300 whisper, in fact searching for it drew me to this sight because of a discussion, but really - its a HUGE hassle.

It is very easy to hand load sub-sonic .44 mag, and the integral 77/44 is well balanced and fun to shoot.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:33 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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If you reload the 300 Whisper is not a problem. I can buy 1K pieces of formed whisper brass for $130 to my door. I FL size them for good measure, primer, powder & seat bullet. Not really any different than anything else. Pretty much not gonna find factory subsonic ammo for it. Build it on an AR and get an adjustable gas system so you can run it with and without the gas for the quiet effect.

Get the whisper for ranges over 100yds (out to 300+yds), get the 45 for short ranges less than 100yds.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:56 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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I have to agree with the caver101. If you reload, then 300 whisper is the way to go. 300 whisper is no more difficult than any other cartridge, in fact because it is a bottle neck case, it is easier to reload than the 45 acp.

Forming the whisper case from once fired 223 remington is easy, but time consuming. I just cut off the brass right at the shoulder, size, then trim.

I shoot 45acp and 300 whisper subsonic in rifles. The 300 whisper has a slightly flatter trajectory, and is more (.75 moa) accurate. The best I can do at 100 yards is 4" with the 45acp, but this is out of a enfield that I ported, I might be able to do 2-3 MOA in a better barrel. The 300 whisper with a match grade bullet just can not be beaten in any other small subsonic load except perhaps the 338 whisper. The 44 mag and various 45 calibers will use heavier bullets, but the large bore of the silencers makes for more noise than the smaller 300/338 calibers.

Ranb


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:46 pm 
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Easier than 270+ grn .44mag... really?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:15 am 
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Silent But Deadly

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Maybe. I think just about any bottle neck cartridge is easier to reload than a straight wall case. But that is just my opinion. :)

I really would like to get a 77/44, but I may have to settle for another encore barrel instead.

Ranb


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:58 pm 
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not to thread drift too much, but I've been waffling with what to do with my AR build once my cash flow crisis ends. I could SBR it in 5.56, go 300 whisper, or keep it as is and save up for a DPMS .308 tactical carbine. I've already got a YHM Phantom .762 and am looking for another gun to host it other than my Rem 700.

It would be nice if it could also serve as a SHTF rifle, which makes 300 less promising unless I handload 1000 to just store in a go-bag. Keeping to .308 and 5.56 seems a safer bet but I don't know of any semi- .308 battle rifles that can reliably cycle subsonic.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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I would get the 223SBR first then the 308 and the whisper last if you want them for SHTF use.

If you want a 308 get a 308, the whisper is nowhere in the same ballpark as the 308.


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