Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Moderators: mpallett, mr fixit, bakerjw, renegade
-
- Silent But Deadly
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:04 pm
- Location: Born L.A.- NYC 2nd home- Rustbelt home base
Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Are silencers... priced fairly, overpriced, underpriced.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
I would say considering all the hassle (manufacture licensing, taxes, wait) they are fairly priced for the quality and quantity sold. If we didn't have all the regulation I believe prices would be much lower but so would quality. I've seen essentially disposable suppressors in other countries where they are not as regulated.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
People are gonna say overpriced before thinking what it takes to make them.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
I say under-priced to fair-priced, considering the, hassles, required licenses, and other costs associated with being a manufacturer. Also lots of revenue tied up for long periods of time before the product can be moved.
I disagree with the comment that quality would be lower without the regulation. Imagine all the individuals and companies that would jump on the wagon if all the hassles were to be taken out of the equation....R&D would speed up and I think the quality/effectiveness would increase too. To simplify, consider 6 people with heavy restrictions imposed who are working on and developing a product, versus 1000 people without restrictions. Lots more ideas flowing and being tested.
I disagree with the comment that quality would be lower without the regulation. Imagine all the individuals and companies that would jump on the wagon if all the hassles were to be taken out of the equation....R&D would speed up and I think the quality/effectiveness would increase too. To simplify, consider 6 people with heavy restrictions imposed who are working on and developing a product, versus 1000 people without restrictions. Lots more ideas flowing and being tested.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Let me qualify my quality statement. When I say quality I mean the build quality or durability not necessarily the effectiveness. With the hassle and tax it doesn't make much sense to purchase a suppressor that can't last for a long time. If suppressors became similar to any other accessory there would not be the same need to make them as durable. This would allow you to purchase a more reasonably priced suppressor and replace it when it's worn out or a newer better one is available.rockman96 wrote:I say under-priced to fair-priced, considering the, hassles, required licenses, and other costs associated with being a manufacturer. Also lots of revenue tied up for long periods of time before the product can be moved.
I disagree with the comment that quality would be lower without the regulation. Imagine all the individuals and companies that would jump on the wagon if all the hassles were to be taken out of the equation....R&D would speed up and I think the quality/effectiveness would increase too. To simplify, consider 6 people with heavy restrictions imposed who are working on and developing a product, versus 1000 people without restrictions. Lots more ideas flowing and being tested.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Considering economy of scale, and the fact the suppressor market is...suppressed...due to excessive regulations? Yes, they're overpriced. Take away all excess regulations, paperwork and waiting period and the market increases what - 5 to 10 fold? There's nothing magical or specialized about making a suppressor. Modern machinery and manufacturing techniques applied to a large-scale market could reduce the price by half at least while maintaining a huge profit margin.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Even with R&D assuming a manufacturer doesnt just use one of the existing designs..... $750-$1000 for a steel tube with some baffles inside of it really???
Overpriced
Overpriced
- Selectedmarksman
- Silencertalk Goon Squad
- Posts: 6633
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:16 am
- Location: KY
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Consider the high cost of equipment to get started, the cost of R&D, and the MASSIVE liability that comes along with just dipping your toes in the water of NFA manufacturing. If you think they aren't fairly priced, start up your own Silencer manufacturing company and beat everyone else by $200.
I'm not saying I don't wish they were cheaper. If we got rid of the NFA and had laws on the books protecting manufacturers from absurd lawsuits (such as trying to hold them liable for the use of a stolen silencer in a crime or something) then I'd expect prices to drop accordingly.
I'm not saying I don't wish they were cheaper. If we got rid of the NFA and had laws on the books protecting manufacturers from absurd lawsuits (such as trying to hold them liable for the use of a stolen silencer in a crime or something) then I'd expect prices to drop accordingly.
I've got Honey Badger Fever.
*Add this to your sig if you've got the fever, too!
*Add this to your sig if you've got the fever, too!
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
i think they are over priced mainly because of the cost of the raw material involved. Are going to tell me it cost 850.00 for a .308 can because of all the "taxes" involved. The taxes it cost are 200.00$ for people buying these.
AAC Cyclone-BRANDED FOR LIFE MEMBER
- Selectedmarksman
- Silencertalk Goon Squad
- Posts: 6633
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:16 am
- Location: KY
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
It's not just about raw materials. You have to recoup the costs of the expensive equipment used to make the products, the thousands of hours you paid people to do R&D to develop your designs, insurance, salaries, etc.gunguy wrote:i think they are over priced mainly because of the cost of the raw material involved. Are going to tell me it cost 850.00 for a .308 can because of all the "taxes" involved. The taxes it cost are 200.00$ for people buying these.
Now, you could have a case where someone's just using an entry level mini-mill and lathe to slap together loose-tolerance parts in a garage with internal components copied from existing designs and doing crappy welding by hand. In that case, if they charge as much as the cutting-edge companies they should go to hell.
I've got Honey Badger Fever.
*Add this to your sig if you've got the fever, too!
*Add this to your sig if you've got the fever, too!
- pneumagger
- Silent But Deadly
- Posts: 3455
- Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:09 am
- Location: N.E. Ohio
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Overpriced given the product recieved for the price that the consumer pays (standpoint of the buyer). Such products CAN be provided at lower cost.
Fair priced given the regulations and restrictions manufactures have to put up with (standpoint of the sellers).
Although I do think that the manfactures may slightly exploit the fact that suppressor purchasers can't move too freely in the marketplace. The lack of free market and artificially limited ability to satiate supply has gradually led to higher prices.
Fair priced given the regulations and restrictions manufactures have to put up with (standpoint of the sellers).
Although I do think that the manfactures may slightly exploit the fact that suppressor purchasers can't move too freely in the marketplace. The lack of free market and artificially limited ability to satiate supply has gradually led to higher prices.
I reject your truths and substitute my own realities
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
For the most part, and it does pain me to say this because I can not afford all the cans I want... But priced fairly.
The reason is, if you try and make a Cyclone for the cost of buying one, well, you can't. I'm not talking about some bullshit clone, I'm talking about inconel, robotic welded, edm bore etc. I know the markup might seem huge to some, but I don't see a lot of room there. I would be concerned to be a small mfg in such a small niche market.
The reason is, if you try and make a Cyclone for the cost of buying one, well, you can't. I'm not talking about some bullshit clone, I'm talking about inconel, robotic welded, edm bore etc. I know the markup might seem huge to some, but I don't see a lot of room there. I would be concerned to be a small mfg in such a small niche market.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Economy of scale is key. This is unfortunately, still a niche market. I may be wrong, but at the time it seemed as though it took an order for 50 SPR/M4 brakes from Major Malfunction in order for AAC to even consider a run, and from what I remember it was a one time run at that. Anywhere else that would be considered a small order unless you were talking nuclear reactors, naval vessels, or Satellites. I ordered my Ti-Rant 9 in june of this year, it's a take apart model, and the serial number is under 900. How long has it been since they started producing Ti-Rant9's? Much less take apart Ti-Rant 9's? (Note:that is an apostrophe, not a Ti-Rant 9s i.e. the short model). They also have an intriguingly competitive market in the U.S. given the lack of high sales volume. Since we all hate the delay in paperwork, the added cost it incurs, and the fact that resale of our suppressors is a pain in the ass we expect the best performance for our dollars so that our cans will be "amazing" for longer. If you don't believe me look at the number of independent silencer testing sites out there now. That demand for great suppression requires increasing amounts of R&D money which might not be recuperated if your can doesn't test well at an independent site.
I'm sure some of the cost is due to the limited market, but I think that under the constraints they are working it is a fair price. Limited production, The expectation of peak performance, and the desire for your can to last forever given what a pain in the ass it was to buy in the first place. This adds up to an expensive marketplace.
So yeah, I do think the prices are fair. And yeah, I still bitch all to hell and gone about them every chance I get.
"Yeah, I spent $XXXX on this F&**ing can and I don't even get to play with it for 4 months cause the Go$D@#N3D ATF can't get their $H1+ Stacked!!!!"
I'm sure some of the cost is due to the limited market, but I think that under the constraints they are working it is a fair price. Limited production, The expectation of peak performance, and the desire for your can to last forever given what a pain in the ass it was to buy in the first place. This adds up to an expensive marketplace.
So yeah, I do think the prices are fair. And yeah, I still bitch all to hell and gone about them every chance I get.
"Yeah, I spent $XXXX on this F&**ing can and I don't even get to play with it for 4 months cause the Go$D@#N3D ATF can't get their $H1+ Stacked!!!!"
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
I voted fairly priced given the artificially regulated market they exist in.
Using a .22 can as an example, In a true free market, they would be designed/prototyped in the US, manufactured in China to US specs a la Apple, and sold for $100 instead of $500 with an even higher profit margin for the manufacturer due to many more sales.
Using a .22 can as an example, In a true free market, they would be designed/prototyped in the US, manufactured in China to US specs a la Apple, and sold for $100 instead of $500 with an even higher profit margin for the manufacturer due to many more sales.
"I regard virginity as a correctible perversity of no interest" - Lazarus Long (Time Enough for Love), Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
I agree with this and throw in US labor and regulations.este wrote:For the most part, and it does pain me to say this because I can not afford all the cans I want... But priced fairly.
The reason is, if you try and make a Cyclone for the cost of buying one, well, you can't. I'm not talking about some bullshit clone, I'm talking about inconel, robotic welded, edm bore etc. I know the markup might seem huge to some, but I don't see a lot of room there. I would be concerned to be a small mfg in such a small niche market.
They only become cheaper when they start handing Chinese clones out over the counter at Wal-mart.
Member of the LSU, SWR, and RUGGED underground. Shame Silencerco!
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Just because you don't want to pay that much for it, doesn't make it overpriced.
I say fairly priced.
I say fairly priced.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Hey Emilio, I fixed it for you!Emilio wrote: I agree with this and throw in US labor and regulations.
They only become cheaper when they start handing Chinese clones out over the counter at Mao-Mart.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
HIGH priced due to the extremely limited market.
Kick Ass Design
ten:pm media
www.facebook.com/VisualGravy
ten:pm media
www.facebook.com/VisualGravy
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
This is probably a better answer. Overpriced would allude to "priced higher than market value", and I don't think that's the case. Most suppressor makers aren't sitting on a ton of inventory from what I can understand.JasonM wrote:HIGH priced due to the extremely limited market.
Overpriced, as in "priced higher than market value," would be something like a 2011 Chevy Silverado that stickers for $42,000 in October 2010 and ends up selling for $31,000 in November 2011. Suppressor clearance sales are few and far between.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Ya I guess your right. I still think the best deal was the "Branded for Life" promotion. My cyclone is one amazing sounding can.Selectedmarksman wrote:It's not just about raw materials. You have to recoup the costs of the expensive equipment used to make the products, the thousands of hours you paid people to do R&D to develop your designs, insurance, salaries, etc.gunguy wrote:i think they are over priced mainly because of the cost of the raw material involved. Are going to tell me it cost 850.00 for a .308 can because of all the "taxes" involved. The taxes it cost are 200.00$ for people buying these.
Now, you could have a case where someone's just using an entry level mini-mill and lathe to slap together loose-tolerance parts in a garage with internal components copied from existing designs and doing crappy welding by hand. In that case, if they charge as much as the cutting-edge companies they should go to hell.
AAC Cyclone-BRANDED FOR LIFE MEMBER
- eastern_hunter
- Silent But Deadly
- Posts: 966
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:34 pm
- Location: Charleston, WV
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
A little high priced by some manufacturers;
Many vendors are close to fair pricing due to the high cost of startup because of the precision required, the sometimes exotic materials, the extraordinary PITA of complying regulation, and the limited size of the marked.
If there these devices were not regulated by the NFA we'd have a much wider selection and range of pricing. But the best makers would still not be cheap in comparison to those supplying an average product. Really good still commands a premium price.
Many vendors are close to fair pricing due to the high cost of startup because of the precision required, the sometimes exotic materials, the extraordinary PITA of complying regulation, and the limited size of the marked.
If there these devices were not regulated by the NFA we'd have a much wider selection and range of pricing. But the best makers would still not be cheap in comparison to those supplying an average product. Really good still commands a premium price.
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
I make my own because I can not afford to buy as many as I want and it is fun to do it myself. I think silencers are priced just right as this is a free market economy. Silencers will be sold for whatever the market will bear. And now the market says something like $300 for a 22lr and $3500 for a 50 bmg can. Silencers will only be overpriced when the market will not bear the cost to make them.
The professionals make better designs on better machines by better people than I can. Pay the price or make your own.
Ranb
The professionals make better designs on better machines by better people than I can. Pay the price or make your own.
Ranb
Last edited by ranb on Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SilencerTalk was a place I could disccuss making registered silencers without being told I was a criminal. That is no longer true. http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=99273
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
I picked Fairly priced. Most are, but some are over priced. New compitition is proving that. The Osprey and TiRant price battle is a perfect example. It is a small market and us buyers don't drive that price. We have to accept what we are given. But, we have some awesome stuff to pick from today. If the manufacturers want more people to get into suppressors the prices will have to drop. My dad is a perfect example. He does like shooting my suppressors, but would never drop that kind of money on one for a rifle.
Jk
Jk
Some of my work. www.jkknives.com
- Selectedmarksman
- Silencertalk Goon Squad
- Posts: 6633
- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:16 am
- Location: KY
Re: Are silencers...priced fairly, overpriced, undepriced
Agreed with all the above, but as far as your dad goes, point him to multi-use suppressors. For example, if you had a TiRant 45 or Osprey .45 that's all your centerfire pistol calibers covered. An AAC 762-SDN-6 would cover most things .30 cal and down for centerfire rifle. If you buy smart, you can have one can for many rifles.J Krammes wrote:I picked Fairly priced. Most are, but some are over priced. New compitition is proving that. The Osprey and TiRant price battle is a perfect example. It is a small market and us buyers don't drive that price. We have to accept what we are given. But, we have some awesome stuff to pick from today. If the manufacturers want more people to get into suppressors the prices will have to drop. My dad is a perfect example. He does like shooting my suppressors, but would never drop that kind of money on one for a rifle.
Jk
I've got Honey Badger Fever.
*Add this to your sig if you've got the fever, too!
*Add this to your sig if you've got the fever, too!