Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

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jrkotz
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by jrkotz »

I think we're talking about the same thing here??

http://ingunowners.com/forums/bfg_desig ... ridge.html
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JohnInNH
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by JohnInNH »

82nd airborne wrote:I have a 6.5 grendel necked up to .358 with a lengthened throat to accomodate longer bullets for subsonic use. I also have a sizer die reamer for the same. If you get a gunsmith that I know and trust, Ill let you borrow it. it is a pretty cool round. You can also make the brass from x39, even steel case in a pinch, though I woulnd do it regularly, I just wanted to see if it worked.

That is the Gremlin but you have the longet throat... COOL!

So a BFG Savage barrel in 1:12 touch it up with your reamer.. PERFECT! drool gif.

Matt let's built 2 of em! Call me
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JohnInNH
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by JohnInNH »

jrkotz wrote:I think we're talking about the same thing here??

http://ingunowners.com/forums/bfg_desig ... ridge.html

His web site= http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358Gremlin.html
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 82nd airborne »

Im not in good enough health to take on the work at the moment, but I do have a few very good match .358 SS blanks and the above mentioned reamers if you want a project. I also have a 35 Whelen reamer, which when filled with trail boss makes a sweet subsonic round. Its not near as good as the .358 Delta, gremlin, whatever. The ss 1:12 blanks I have, when machined properly, will shoot some rediculous groups.
Ill try to give you a holler tomorrow or monday morning Matt.
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 82nd airborne »

The .358 Delta has a slightly longer neck than the grimlin, which we did strictly for cast bullets, but after toying with it, I think the Gremlin would get just as good retention. It is a sweet round. Another reamer I am going to make when I am able is a .358 Spectre.
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Aaron Fouraker
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peytont
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by peytont »

Well I've put well over 500 rnds through my 77/357+mystic combo by now, 95% has been cast bullets. Finally took my mystic apart for cleaning. It was tough getting it apart but I managed. I couldn't believe the build up!! Really bad in the blast chamber area. I hope my tirant 9mm isn't that bad it has almost 2000rnds though it allthough no cast bullets.

I've found my go to hunting sub load: 200gr cast bullet technologies fp/gc backed by 5.0 gr of W231 in federal cases. This combo gave a 15 shot average of 1022fps low ES and SD and held 10 shots under 5" at 100 yards. I like the flat point and they feed like butter from the mag. I'm trying several more styles of bullets over the next few weeks from a couple other bullet makers. I would love to find a bullet even cheaper than the CBT fp/gc. This is strickly a hunting setup, so a 5" group at 100 is perfectly fine if I limit my shot range. When I shoot for groups I always get 5 or 6 shots within 2" and then several flyers open it up to 5".

I'm tempted to try some 35 whelen cast bullets to see if I can even get them in the mag at a decent COAL. If I can then I might spring for a custom fast twist barrel. Maybe in a few months. I'm having too much fun shooting it as is.

Oh, and my ruger has been 100% on feeding and ejection. This is what drove me away from the 300blk to begin with. My 300blk had constant ejetion problems from my rem700, I totaly lost faith in it. I've since switched it back to a .223 and the feeding and ejection is now 100% again.

One more thing, the reloading is slick. One pass through my carbide dies, no lube, no trimming. Just size, reprime, flare and powder, seat bullet and crimp. I can rip through them on my dillon.

Its on the far right. Look at how beat up my mystic is already. I got pig blood on it and its baked on now, scratched and banged up pretty good. You can see my .223 that used to be a 300blk, second from right. I switched it back to .223 after buying my ruger.
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JohnInNH
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by JohnInNH »

In my contender I shoot the 250 gr and will in my Gremlin when I get it built.
"Hunter" bullets 250 gr (247 on the site) with a GC I put on,,, to long for the Ruger
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Second from the Left is my 210 gr bullet in 357 mag nickle brass over 6.2 gr of Unique. (Contender only) I will change over to 231 That load is for a 10" barrel you may have to start at a little less. I would start at 5.2gr of 231

That load shoots Sweet!

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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 82nd airborne »

John, I found a 280g wadcutter mould in my dads stuff that Im using in my .358. Talk about tissue damage for subsonic!
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Aaron Fouraker
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45r
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 45r »

Just found this thread and enjoyed it a lot.I've ordered a mystic and hope to have it in a few months when stamp comes.I plan to use it on 357mag,357max contender and my DCA 300BLK which shoots great with supers and subs.I have a few custom Mtn Molds that make accurate 185,200, and 215 grain 357 bullets.Enjoyed reading about your father also Aaron.It's a blessing to have great parents.Dave said he likes the the 22 contender barrel and scope.Looking forward to trying out your DCA suppressors when they're avaiable.A bolt gun in 357mag or 357spectre sounds like a cool subsonic rifle.
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peytont
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by peytont »

Here are the contenders: L to R 240gr penn wadcutter, 210gr beartooth gc, 200gr cast performance gc, 200gr mt. baldy keith style. All with 5.0 gr of W231 they run between 980 and 1050 fps. The penn's are my least favorite, I'll have 10 shots group and then have a flyer that won't even hit the steel. I wonder if its a twist deal, no baffle strikes, the penn's are the longest bullet. The Penn's aren't 100% on the feeding either, I wish they made a 220gr with a better nose design for feeding with a gas check. With the beartooths I have to seat them past the crimp groove, COAL = 1.641", but they still shoot great. So far the accuracy champ goes to the cast performance bullets. I've ordered another hundred of the beartooths for a shoot off.
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For terminals I really like the Mt. Baldy keith style but the accuracy just isn't up to what the beartooths and cp bullets are capable of. With no gc they are cheap though. Lately this has been my go to gun at the ranch. It doesn't bother the kids ears with subs and its very light even with the can.

Through the scope pic. I really like the 1-4 leupy. Where the bottom half of the circle intersects the cross hairs I have it zeroed for 100 yards on 4x. I might try and switch to TMR reticle or have a custom one created in the future. Still trying to decide on a bullet.
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I love my ruger set up so much I'm considering a 358gremlin build now as well. 300gr lead bullets are cheap, I can get a savage 7.62x39 rifle for $500 and a 12 twist barrel for $250. Have my smith plumb it up for $200. Is this worth it to launch bullets weighting 90 more grains?? I'm afraid it might be.
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by srt-4_uk »

dont forget the $150 dies. also, you dont need a smith for a Savage, thats the beauty of the barrel nut. if you are sticking with a .357 bullet, thats the next step. if you really wanted to send some heavyweights, get a .458 cartridge.

I went with a 458 win mag. So far Im at $350 for the gun, $170 for the barrel, $40 dies, and $25 for the barrel wrench so do it all at home. also planning on selling off the 300 win mag barrel to pay for a stock. 500gr bullets are $.20 and brass is $37/50.
45r
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 45r »

You can use inexpensive 357sig dies to neck down Starline 10mm mag brass to 357auto(358spectre) with the sizing die held off the shellholder 300 thou or get custom dies from Hornady.The brass forms easy and seals tight being thinner than rifle brass when fired,uses large pistol primers,can use lyman m-die,all work well with cast bullets.Has all the good qualities of the 338 Spectre but with much cheaper 357 pistol bullets that open good at sub-sonic velocity.I think a 6.8spc bolt gun could be used with barrel change.Can be used in AR also with 6.8 mags.200 grain rem 358 SP's are accurate.I'd imagine RE-7 would work well with PB cast and many powders would work with GC cast.My 200 grain PB cast bullets using RE-7 shoot ragged hole groups at 50 yards from my 357mag Marlin.Everything should work well with the Mystic since the pressures would be low and ES good with the small internal volume of 10mm mag brass.The 358G would be faster but the 358 Spectre would work better for sub-sonic and cast I think if the chamber is throated right(cast bullets like to be lightly engraved or close to it when chambered).
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 45r »

Shot a MGM 357mag 10 inch barrel with a holosight on my SS contender today and it shot 185GC bullets over 14.5 grains 296 into a ragged hole at 25 yards.MGM chambers their barrels with the rifle throat and it didn't lead at all.Think I'll get it threaded and work up some sub loads.Previous owner said it shot inch and a half at 100 yards with corbon ammo and a 4x scope.I think my 200 grain PB bullets should work for subs.Unique and WSF been working with cast 147 grain bullets in my 9mm.Might get some 231 to try.Many have gone to WSF for 9mm 147 ammo and it does well.Haven't seen any 357 loads with it.Guess I'll start at 5 grains and see if works as well as unique.It meters better.I'm starting to like 35 cal as much as 45.Think this barrel will match up well with a mystic.
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peytont
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by peytont »

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Been running quite a few of the beartooth bullets through my 357/77+mystic combo with great results. In my quest for a heavier bullet I thought I would try hunters 246 gr FP. I ordered a box. They are long! To long to work with 357 cases and feed through the mag. I had almost given up on them. However, this afternoon I thought of using 38 spcl cases. Its a match made if heaven. All there is to do now is work up a load with W231 and see if they stabalize. If not I'll order a faster twist barrel and have my gun plumber screw it on. One way or another I'll get them to work.
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by lafsnguy »

With all this talk of suppressed 357 magnum I just sent off my marlin 1894CSS off to get threaded for use with my liberty infiniti. Also just picked up a Dillon square deal B all set up to reload 38/357 and 9mm. It's a sickness I tell you.
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peytont
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by peytont »

peytont wrote: Been running quite a few of the beartooth bullets through my 357/77+mystic combo with great results. In my quest for a heavier bullet I thought I would try hunters 246 gr FP. I ordered a box. They are long! To long to work with 357 cases and feed through the mag. I had almost given up on them. However, this afternoon I thought of using 38 spcl cases. Its a match made if heaven. All there is to do now is work up a load with W231 and see if they stabalize. If not I'll order a faster twist barrel and have my gun plumber screw it on. One way or another I'll get them to work.

The bullet stability calculators are all telling me it will be stable. The bullet is 1.038" long. My rifle twist should be 16. I'm well within the saftey margin. I thought for sure I would be right on the edge.

If this works it will be epic. The bullets are dirt cheap so is 38 spcl brass. This is working to easily something will go wrong.
45r
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 45r »

I've been playing with my DCA 300BLK upper with mystic and it shoots so well with RE-7 and the Noe 247PB's I think I'll have a hard time finding something else that will outshoot it for accuracy.I think it will be good to go out to at least 200 yards.I think a 357 would hit a little harder at close range and some components are cheaper but the 300BLK will be more accurate.Especially in the wind.
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JohnInNH
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by JohnInNH »

45r wrote:I've been playing with my DCA 300BLK upper with mystic and it shoots so well with RE-7 and the Noe 247PB's I think I'll have a hard time finding something else that will out shoot it for accuracy.I think it will be good to go out to at least 200 yards.I think a 357 would hit a little harder at close range and some components are cheaper but the 300BLK will be more accurate. Especially in the wind.
At those distances the horrid ES of the blk will start to show. With 60-80 fps ES at 300 yards the BLK may not be as accurate as the 250 gr 357 bullets, or in my case the 300 gr 358 cal bullets with an ES of 25 fps

Loads that will cycle the AR also in my testing have the worst ES, while faster pistol powders may cut the ES in half. I attribute the poor internal ballistics to the inconsistent bullet pull and case capacity. A longer neck would have helped but then would not work in the AR magazine. I was on the phone today with a firearms engineer and he is having the same problem. High Extreme velocity Spread while working on a weapons system for the military using the BLK for ammo.

My 357 MAXIMUM subsonic 300 gr loads have less than 1/2 the ES of the best of my 300 BLK subsonic loads, and they are not gas gun loads which are much worse. I wish I had the 357 MAX in a rifle.

For what I use the BLK for the ES is not that big of an tissue. Its not a long rang round. 300 is the most for supers and 100 yards for subs. 150 yards in a sub is 40" of drop.

Run the drop numbers in a ballistic calculation with a FPS difference of 75 fps.... one at 925 FPS then at 1000 fps. The difference in drop will be the vertical stringing. Then the different harmonic, and recoil variation will yield possible horizontal spread.. Most target loads for a 308 have an ES of single digits. Any load with a 75FPS ES would go in the dumpster. So why is this considered acceptable in the BLK?
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by 45r »

I'm using 11.3 grains RE-7 with the NOE 247PB's and getting 1030 to 1080 fps and sometimes even better ES.I use the heaviest and most round bullets for accuracy testing.I lube at .311 and then run them through a 309 lee sizer.I use and Mdie so no shaving and use a lee FC set to crimp one thou under crimpgroove so no setback.I clean brass in ultra-sonic then use tumbler with corn cob to get like new brass with consistant neck tension and weight tested for uniformity.I shoot 10 shot strings under half MOA with my Sako 223 varmit rig.It has killed a bunch of woodchucks way out there..Uniformity is the key.It is time consuming but can be done.If I get some 220smk's or 208 amax's I think 200 yards shots would be no problem with the 300 BLK.I think a boltgun would be easier,but the DCA upper shoots pretty good with the lapped barrel.On a windless day I think I could dial in my leupold and make hits at 200 on a 8 inch gong consistantly.50fps ES isn't that bad for a AR.If I miss there is a lot more that can be sent pretty fast.Can't hunt with a can in my state so I'm just having fun shooting quiet.It's the most fun I've had shooting.Sure is nice not to need muff's and not worry about bothering my neighbors with the noise.I have 41 acres but noise travels a long ways around here and my neighbors hate my mag handgun shooting.They don't mind my 45acp so much shooting wienie loads.I think the upper will shoot under 2 inch at 100 and around 5 to 6 inch at 200.I'm getting 3/4 inch 7 shot groups at 50 on very windy conditions so far.The first 5 go 1/2 inch.Hitting sillywett rams at 200 meters isn't hard to me with a handgun so my rifle should be easier.
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Emilio
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by Emilio »

how well is the 77/357 grouping with sub loads? I know the $250 Handi in 357 not so great so tell me why I want to spend $600 plus threading cost . :mrgreen:
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peytont
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by peytont »

Federal 38spcl cases, CCI small pistol magnum primers (thats all I had), all W231, all 247gr Hunters cast bullet 0.359
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4.0 gr 10 shot average 898fps
4.5 gr 10 shot average 946 sd of 10 es of 30
5.0 gr 10 shot average 995 sd of 10 es of 30

The first five rounds I shot with no can to check for tumbling at 100 yards. Here is a typical 5 shot group.
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No issues. Ordered 250 more bullets and a bunch of 38 spcl brass. I plan on loading up a bunch of the 5.0gr load see how I like them. I might try and speed them up some but maybe not. Very satisfied with the results.
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by BachelorJack »

Magnum primers and subloads are the way to go. Especially if planning on shooting suppressed.
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by mtelkman »

Just to add to this thread in case any others are thinking of trying heavy bullets in their 38/357 rifles....

I tried the 247 grain HS bullet behind 5 grains of W231 in a 38 special case in my threaded lever action Marlin 1894C. It has the same twist (1 in 16) as the Ruger 77/357 bolt rifle. Out of my 6 test shots, 5 of the bullets showed extreme tumbling at 60 yards. Not stable at all with a group size over 1 foot in diameter. I am glad I tried the load in the gun before I threaded on the suppressor! Too bad this didn't work for me as I really liked the idea of shooting heavy loads through this rifle.

EDIT: Update!!!! OK, I am an idiot. I had the rounds crimped too far forward which screwed up the loads. I crimped them at the length that would allow them to feed instead of where their crimp groove was. I retried with some properly loaded and crimped rounds and they shot perfectly. Totally stabilized. Unfortunately they wouldn't feed when cycling the action. :( In order to get them to feed in my Marlin I will need to trim the 38 special cases shorter by .095. That should not be a problem as there is plenty of room for powder even with the shortened case. I think I will drop the powder charge down a bit as well since I was running at 1076 fps through the chrono and I'd like to keep them just a tiny bit slower to assure they always stay subsonic. Without really trying I was getting just over 3" groups at 65 yards with this load.
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peytont
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by peytont »

Did a batch of 250 rounds on my Dillon. I've about gone though the first batch.
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Typical 5 shot group at 100 on a 8" plate. I usually have 3 or 4 stack on top of each other and then some flyers.
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5 at 75 on a 6" plate, I've got a 50 and 25 yard targets but its just one giant lead splat.
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Through the scope at 100
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Very happy so far. The deer are going to hate this setup. My SBR stamp should be back first of November.
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Re: Liberty mystic+ruger 77/357 = 300 black killer

Post by jandbj »

peytont wrote:My SBR stamp should be back first of November.
Can't wait to see pics of the 77/357 as an SBR! :mrgreen:


:?:On the 247 grain subsonic loads, are you running gas checks or not?
If you are not using them, do you see signs of excessive leading either in the barrel or in your Mystic? I NEED a Mystic!

JohninNH has been loading 250 grainers with GC in .38 cases with American Select for my 77/357.
I have been shooting them through a sealed (all aluminum) SRT 9mm can. I have a box of loaded rounds sans GC, but have yet to scrub the rifle and see if I detect excessive leading after firing the full box. Figured you have more trigger & loading time than anyone else on the 'net with this rifle & similar loads...

p.s. We did load a round with a 300 gr cast bullet but it showed significant yawing inside 10 yards when fired without a can.
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