General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.
Hey guys. I'm new around here so I thought I'd contribute some ideas I don't know if anyone else has gone through yet. I need to clean my .22 SS sparrow and wanted to use the dip but really hate the idea of having Pb(II)Ac sitting around my house. So I decided to put my chemistry degree to use and find a way to detoxify with household items. The idea behind this is that while elemental Pb is still toxic it is much safer than an aqueous solution of the Pb(II) salt. There has to be a way to reduce Pb2+ back to elemental Pb. Here's the solution that I came up with: Magnesium is a very good reducing agent and readily available in fire starting kits. It will react with the elemental lead given the following reactions (sorry about the nerd content but it equals clean suppressor)
Pb2+ + 2e- --> Pb
Mg --> 2e- + Mg2+
Overall: Pb2+ + Mg --> Pb (s) + Mg2+
The overall energy for this reaction is 2.242 V based on the half reaction. This means that it will proceed with a K of 10^76 to the right. This basically means that the reaction is so downhill in terms of energy that no Pb2+ will remain. This should mean the precipitation of a solid Pb cake on the bottom of your reaction vessel with a harmless solution of Mg(Ac)2 floating above. I'll try this afternoon and let you all know the results. Here's to finally putting my inorganic chemistry to use.
Look at a table of electromotive force. WIll give you an idea of the relative potential involved.
Do remember that reactions can be "pulled" through as well. You have to get rid of the product ... eliminate it from the equalibrium that is established. Can happen when a product is relatively insoluble. So even if the reaction is not preferred by the equalibrium, it will slowly be "pulled" to the right of the arrow.
I had a similar concern with this situation but I came up with a more simplex solution by utilizing a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surmounted by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings were in a direct line with the pentametric fan. The main winding was of the normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semi-boloid slots in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a nonreversible trem'e pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeters.
Forty-one manestically spaced grouting brushes were arranged to feed into the rotor slipstream a mixture of high S-value phenylhydrobenzamine and 5% reminative tetryliodohexamine. Both of these liquids have specific pericosities given by P = 2.5C.n^6-7 where n is the diathetical evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is Cholmondeley's annular grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar refractive pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcendental hopper dadoscope. Undoubtedly, the turbo-encabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration. TA-DA!
sorry, when I read your post I couldn't help but think of the Turbo Encabulator
JDrin wrote:I had a similar concern with this situation but I came up with a more simplex solution by utilizing a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surmounted by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings were in a direct line with the pentametric fan. The main winding was of the normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semi-boloid slots in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a nonreversible trem'e pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeters.
Forty-one manestically spaced grouting brushes were arranged to feed into the rotor slipstream a mixture of high S-value phenylhydrobenzamine and 5% reminative tetryliodohexamine. Both of these liquids have specific pericosities given by P = 2.5C.n^6-7 where n is the diathetical evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is Cholmondeley's annular grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar refractive pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcendental hopper dadoscope. Undoubtedly, the turbo-encabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration. TA-DA!
sorry, when I read your post I couldn't help but think of the Turbo Encabulator
That's alright. lol. Just trying to find a solution to the problem. My monocore is still sitting in the dip so no results yet. Bottom line if this works if you can detoxify your spent dip solution by adding magnesium shavings no need to worry about the nerd content.
for the most part, I stopped experimenting with chemistry back in high school.....read into that what you will
as for the magnesium, what "format" are you saying it needs to be in? powder, 1lb chunk, dissolved solution?
I amused myself with the dip a couple weeks ago. I pulled a 22lr apart and let it sit in about a half cup of dip. I was impressed that about 50% of the round had dissolved. I contemplation the use for heavy leaded barrels. This is the extent of my use so I remain ignorant in use. research here and wiki lets me know what it is.
so? what kind of reaction do you expect (pardon the laymen)- exothermic, bubbly?......I'm out of smart chem words
JDrin wrote:for the most part, I stopped experimenting with chemistry back in high school.....read into that what you will
as for the magnesium, what "format" are you saying it needs to be in? powder, 1lb chunk, dissolved solution?
I amused myself with the dip a couple weeks ago. I pulled a 22lr apart and let it sit in about a half cup of dip. I was impressed that about 50% of the round had dissolved. I contemplation the use for heavy leaded barrels. This is the extent of my use so I remain ignorant in use. research here and wiki lets me know what it is.
so? what kind of reaction do you expect (pardon the laymen)- exothermic, bubbly?......I'm out of smart chem words
It will be an exothermic reaction in that heat will be produced. The type of reaction that will take place is called a redox reaction. Short for reduction-oxidation. This is what happens every day when iron rusts. The iron is oxidized. That's exactly what your dip did to the lead on the can. The hydrogen peroxide oxidized the lead which then combined with the acetate. Adding magnesium will reduce the lead back to a solid state. Just not on your can. Let me see if this works before i suggest the form of Mg to use, but more surface area = faster reaction so shavings are better than a chunk. According to the balanced reaction you will need roughly 1 gram of magnesium for every 10 grams of Pb you think are stuck to your can.
It may further complicate your chemistry but Magnesium Sulfate (AKA: Epsom salts) may be a magnesium donor to consider. It's really cheap and is available almost anywhere.
Dweezil wrote:It may further complicate your chemistry but Magnesium Sulfate (AKA: Epsom salts) may be a magnesium donor to consider. It's really cheap and is available almost anywhere.
That would be a nice alternative. However the Mg in MgSO4 isn't in the correct oxidation state for this reaction. It has already been oxidized to Mg2+. For the reaction to occur you need elemental Mg. I finished cleaning my can and the dip is now in the process of being neutralized. I had an initial oversight. The Mg will react with whatever peroxide is left to form MgO then react with the Pb2+ to form the elemental Pb. The reaction mixture is bubbling away right now hopefully forming Pb. Whether it does or not I'll be taking the resultant to the hazmat disposal locally but I'll feel a lot better about storing it in the interim.
The idea here is to make lead acetate into magnesium acetate and deposit the lead as a solid. Problem is that Mg also reacts with water:
Mg (s) + 2H2O(g) -> Mg(OH)2(aq) + H2(g)
Is exothermic (gives off energy) and the bubble you see may well be Hydrogen gas.
I'd think you need to check the precipitate identity for presence of lead. Go back to the old first year college chemistry qual tests.
An easier way to concentrate the lead in a form that is not so toxic is to make an insoluble salt. Use concentrated NaCl (table salt in water) to precipitate the lead out and filter it out.
Mike
(btw: I do have a Ph.D. in chemistry ... for real.)
Last edited by eastern_hunter on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eastern_hunter wrote:<chuckle> Quite the gibberish that one
Guys,
The idea here is to make lead acetate into magnesium acetate and deposit the lead as a solid. Problem is that Mg also reacts with water:
Mg (s) + 2H2O(g) -> Mg(OH)2(aq) + H2(g)
Is exothermic (gives off energy) and the bubble you see may well be Hydrogen gas.
I'd think you need to check the precipitate identity for presence of lead. Go back to the old first year college chemistry qual tests.
Mike
(btw: I do have a Ph.D. in chemistry ... for real.)
Agreed. I had thought of the Mg reacting with the H2O2 but definitely overlooked the H20. I guess that's what happens when you don't work with these things for a while. I'm an M.D. instead of a Ph.D. although chemistry was an attractive career. There is a precipitate at the bottom of the reaction vessel that appears to be lead. I know looks are deceiving but I'll save the precipitate and have one of my friends who's still in organic synthesis run it through the MS. Off topic for the thread but what's your area Mike? I was never great with the inorganic stuff. My research was in building pH sensitive lipids for non-viral gene therapy vectors.
If this were just about turning the Pb(II)Ac2 back into a solid I would have just used some sulfuric acid......but not everybody has ready access...nor should they to this stuff. Mike any ideas about making an insoluble lead salt with household items.
As analytical chemistry with a specialization in the design of automated instruments. Went to work for a large chemical company and became responsible for corporate process control strategy and skills.
Nothing quite like working safely with billion dollar toys!
Added the use of table salt in the previous post. PbCl2 is also insoluble.
As analytical chemistry with a specialization in the design of automated instruments. Went to work for a large chemical company and became responsible for corporate process control strategy and skills.
Nothing quite like working safely with billion dollar toys!
Added the use of table salt in the previous post. PbCl2 is also insoluble.
Nice! The closest I came to the cool toys was the 800 MHz NMR we got just as I was leaving for med school. The toys I have now are much less fun...thus the cans! So this will definitely sound ridiculous but I was just thinking about other substances to precipitate out the lead and table salt was on the list. I'll have to do the math (once again I'm rusty) but is this reaction favorable? I know you could push it with excess reagent which is not a problem but just curious. I tried to rack my brain for a reducing agent that I had at home that would do the trick so I could avoid a lead salt but came up with nothing. Oxidation at home is easy reduction not so much.
Not that I don't enjoy flash backs of my college chemistry days, but it is really worth the time, effort and resources?
Putting in expensive fire starters? And when it is all said and done what are you going to do with the ultra fine lead dust that you will be left with when you filter it out? While biologically less absorbable as elemental lead compared to the acetate form the elemental powder is not exactly safe. If you ingest the powder your stomach acid is more than happy to reconvert it back to a hazardous salt that can be absorbed.
You want to do something with it to trap the toxic lead compounds? Why not leave your dip in a 5 gallon bucket with the lid off and let it evaporate down to a low volume of liquid (don't let it get dry, you don't want to breath the dust or have it spread all around you home). Take this low volume of liquid and add in the cheapest ready mix concrete you can buy (60 lbs for ~$3 by me) at the home improvement store. Mix it well and let it set into a block. You don't have to do a good job mixing, you are not pouring a foundation with the stuff.
I think it will set-up with pH being low from the vinegar, if not just add baking soda to your dip until it stops fizzing then add the concrete mix.
Now everything is bound up in the concrete, put out with the trash and done.
