Just saw on FOX the new assault on hunting: EPA's proposal along with
the usual suspects efforts to ban lead components in ammunition
for hunters.This is not just the tip of the ice berg, it is the nozzle
of the leftist enema to America.

We do not need to whine about it. We need to reinvigorate the
Tea Party/Gun Owners/Clingers-to-Relgion/Patriotism and expeditiously
eviscerate EPA by first tossing the present Chumps in the Regime out
of office faster than flatulence emanating out of Joe Biden after he gorges
his doofus face at a Tex Mex Armadillo Taco Bell.

Money is power. If all the members and viewers of this and sister sites contribute
at least $20 to $100 to whomever [who says gun owners are illiterate] gets
nominated the Republican war chest's overflowing will result in the flushing out of the Pelosi
Pollution Sewers in D.C.

How many gun owners in America? Simple financial arithmetic.

Else the Unions that just gave China "Best Boy" award will be cheering
at the demise of America.

A humorous start. SInce Bill Maher, the third rate supposed comedian, who had beaten
up his past African American girl friend, has a license to spew misogynistic remarks
against Conservative Women, turn around would be fair play. Our more creative
members can create 'Hustler Magazine' cartoons and humor of Maher and Letterman in endless
juxtapositions with the spouses and family members of Congress such as Nutty Nancy Pelosi
and Maxine Waters as a start. Just clean, free speech comics.

Thank you for letting me vent. Lost some dear friends over a lifetime in strange
places to defend us and our families so that the sewers can draw free breath
rather than be deservedly shoved into a Fidel Cuban prison ... as many writers are in now.

God Bless our Country, guys, because the Devil surely seems to be ahead in
the fourth quarter and just 'minutes' ... November Elections ... left to play.

Historian wrote:Just saw on FOX the new assault on hunting: EPA's proposal along with
the usual suspects efforts to ban lead components in ammunition
for hunters.This is not just the tip of the ice berg, it is the nozzle
of the leftist enema to America.

We do not need to whine about it. We need to reinvigorate the
Tea Party/Gun Owners/Clingers-to-Relgion/Patriotism and expeditiously
eviscerate EPA by first tossing the present Chumps in the Regime out
of office faster than flatulence emanating out of Joe Biden after he gorges
his doofus face at a Tex Mex Armadillo Taco Bell.

Money is power. If all the members and viewers of this and sister sites contribute
at least $20 to $100 to whomever [who says gun owners are illiterate] gets
nominated the Republican war chest's overflowing will result in the flushing out of the Pelosi
Pollution Sewers in D.C.

How many gun owners in America? Simple financial arithmetic.

Else the Unions that just gave China "Best Boy" award will be cheering
at the demise of America.

A humorous start. SInce Bill Maher, the third rate supposed comedian, who had beaten
up his past African American girl friend, has a license to spew misogynistic remarks
against Conservative Women, turn around would be fair play. Our more creative
members can create 'Hustler Magazine' cartoons and humor of Maher and Letterman in endless
juxtapositions with the spouses and family members of Congress such as Nutty Nancy Pelosi
and Maxine Waters as a start. Just clean, free speech comics.

Thank you for letting me vent. Lost some dear friends over a lifetime in strange
places to defend us and our families so that the sewers can draw free breath
rather than be deservedly shoved into a Fidel Cuban prison ... as many writers are in now.

God Bless our Country, guys, because the Devil surely seems to be ahead in
the fourth quarter and just 'minutes' ... November Elections ... left to play.

Why do you think Remington / AAC / Cerberus / Freedom Group etc bought Barnes? The biggest company in the industry is likely lobbying for this.

If they are really so concerned about the environment they should start with lead fishing weights before they go for the bullets.

The amount of lead tossed in every public body of water annually has to be staggering in comparison to the threat from bullets encased in dirt.

The EPA is specifically not allowed to regulate ammo.

"(v)any article the sale of which is subject to the tax imposed by section 4181 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 [26 U.S.C. 4181] (determined without regard to any exemptions from such tax provided by section 4182 or 4221 or any other provision of such Code), and"

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/15C53.txt

Interesting, so this would have to be pushed through the P&W in each state?

So I assume steel shot for water fowl was spearheaded by the P&W?

I have read , not sure if it is true, that Freedom Group is owned by Cerberus Capital which is in turn controled by George Soros.

Need to do a little more research on this.

Lead is a natural part of the environment and not nearly as dangerous as many make it seem. Kids were playing with lead soldiers etc years ago. There are many ill effect of lead poisoning, but the amount that gets into the water ways is negligible. It makes sense that they use steel shot etc when hunting over water sheds but shooting into a berm etc is much different.

elcapitan1 wrote:I have read , not sure if it is true, that Freedom Group is owned by Cerberus Capital which is in turn controled by George Soros.

Need to do a little more research on this.

This is completely and totally untrue. This rumor, which is being recycled almost daily, needs to go away. Steve Feinberg calls the shots at Cerebus, is one of the founders, and a long-time Second Amendment supporter.

P Henry wrote:

elcapitan1 wrote:I have read , not sure if it is true, that Freedom Group is owned by Cerberus Capital which is in turn controled by George Soros.

Need to do a little more research on this.

This is completely and totally untrue. This rumor, which is being recylced almost daily, needs to go away. Steve Feinberg calls the shots at Cerebus, is one of the founders, and a long-time Second Amendment supporter.

But but, the chain e-mail I got told me otherwise.

Historian wrote:Just saw on FOX the new assault on hunting: EPA's proposal along with
the usual suspects efforts to ban lead components in ammunition
for hunters.This is not just the tip of the ice berg, it is the nozzle
of the leftist enema to America.

While we're in myth busting mode, this is not true either. What is true is that environmental groups have petitioned EPA to ask for a ban on lead bullets and shot under TSCA. This is in no way a proposal of EPA. A similar path was followed by the enviros two years ago and their petition was summarily denied based on the jurisdictional reasons cited above. What is different this time is that EPA has entertained the enviros petition by taking public comment on it. At the end of the public comment period, EPA may decide to grant the petition (leading to future rulemaking), deny the petition, or sit on it and do nothing, indefinitely. There are a number of laws dictating how EPA must handle petitons such as these.

I know this because I deal with the EPA almost every day on matters such as this, including TSCA, and have been involved in similar petitions both to EPA and for judicial review of EPA actions before the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia.

While I applaud the vigor of everyone's response, I can tell you from experience in taking on both the enviros and EPA you need to have your facts straight and use the right process. Failure to follow the process will leave you no legal recourse and you won't win anything. And while caricatures of Mr. Maher fornicating with Ms. Pelosi might amuse us, it will not further the cause. What you can do, is go look up the EPA notice on this issue and submit public comments. Do it in a factual, non-emotional way, and your arguments just might hold some sway. The volume of comments EPA receives does matter. In addition, contribute to your favorite rights group and let their lawyers also do this, as they know the most effective way to use the system.

While I'm no fan of some of EPA's more political moves, being pissed at them is useless and counterproductive. And in this case factually baseless. The top level are the political people. Below them are a mix of career people, some of them just like you and me. EPA leadership takes counsel from the OGC, who does not like to lose lawsuits. They are resigned to the fact that they will be sued on controversial issues by the losing side....they just don't want to lose. This works in our favor when the facts and the law are on our side.

If you want to win the game, you need to know the rules.

Off my soapbox now....

GTFord1 wrote:But but, the chain e-mail I got told me otherwise.

Lead is natural it comes from nature. We the hunters and shooters are simply putting it back into the ground where it belongs. The envro"mental"ists should love that. We are restoring the earth with every shot fired.

Historian wrote:Just saw on FOX the new assault on hunting: EPA's proposal along with
the usual suspects efforts to ban lead components in ammunition
for hunters.

Please don't be duped on this. This is NOT about hunting. This is about using the EPA to ban ALL lead bullets under the guise of hunting and protecting wildlife.

L1A1Rocker wrote:...
Please don't be duped on this. This is NOT about hunting. This is about using the EPA to ban ALL lead bullets under the guise of hunting and protecting wildlife.

ehhhhh ...

I say ultimately it's about the same old song ... federal gun control.

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/chemtest/pubs/P ... chment.pdf

straight from the epa website. very real and yes they are going after fishing sinkers

so is there any other metal we could use that wouldnt be a nasty threat to body armor ? thats still inexpensive to make and use and wouldnt tare up a barrel in a heartbeat ?

lilfuzzybuny wrote:http://www.epa.gov/oppt/chemtest/pubs/P ... chment.pdf

straight from the epa website. very real and yes they are going after fishing sinkers

Who said it wasn't real? What you posted is two years old, and this petition has already been denied by EPA. Here is the response:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.ns ... endocument

The new petition is described here in a press release by the enviros:

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news ... -2012.html

And if you don't think knowing the rules of the game is important, read this little excerpt from the eniros lawsuit last year:

http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/showth ... for-awhile

ah i searched the epa's website

doubloon wrote:If they are really so concerned about the environment they should start with lead fishing weights before they go for the bullets.

The amount of lead tossed in every public body of water annually has to be staggering in comparison to the threat from bullets encased in dirt.

About twenty years ago, I had a couple of kids stopping by the repair shop that I was working at asking me to save all of the small GM style spark plugs so they could use them for fishing weights.

Update below. If you read all the way to the end, you might be touched by how much the enviros are concerned for the health of the hunters among us, since we obviously are eating so much lead. What BS. This is how this game is played, however....

__________________________

TOXICS: EPA denies enviros' petition to regulate lead in hunting ammo (Tuesday, April 10, 2012)
Jeremy P. Jacobs, E&E reporter
U.S. EPA yesterday denied a petition from 100 environmental groups asking the agency to regulate lead in hunting ammunition.

The agency's decision came less than a month after the organizations, led by the Center for Biological Diversity, filed the petition. EPA dismissed the effort, arguing that the petition was largely the same as another that EPA denied in 2010.

The groups asked EPA to regulate lead under its authority granted by the 1976 Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA). In denying the original petition -- which called for an outright ban on lead in ammunition and fishing tackle -- EPA said it lacked the regulatory authority the petition asked the agency to use.

Jeff Miller of the Center for Biological Diversity said EPA made the wrong call.

"It's shameful that the EPA refuses to save wildlife from senseless lead poisoning," Miller said in a statement. "The poisoning of bald eagles and other wildlife is a national tragedy the EPA can easily put an end to, since there are plenty of safe, available alternatives to lead ammo."

Miller also indicated in an interview that the group expected the response, but that it was necessary for the group's next steps.

"We will definitely be going back to court," he said.

The Center for Biological Diversity's first effort in 2010 resulted in a complicated outcome. EPA initially split the petition in half between fishing tackle and lead ammunition. It quickly ruled that it lacked the authority to ban lead in ammunition, then later also denied the fishing tackle portion (Greenwire, Feb. 22).

The group sought to challenge the ruling on ammunition in court, but a federal judge dismissed the lawsuit last September in large part because the statute of limitations on EPA's decision had run out.

Miller said EPA's action on the new petition allows his coalition -- which includes conservationists, hunters, zoologists and scientists -- to quickly challenge EPA's assertion that it lacks the authority to regulate the ammunition.

Moreover, Miller said he'll contend that the new petition is "substantially different" from the original.

The center's efforts have been strongly opposed by some lawmakers on Capitol Hill and by the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation.

Gary Kania, the group's vice president, said EPA's "logic is infallible."

"It's the petition they submitted before, and it was denied then," he said.

Kania added that any regulations on lead in ammunition should be determined based on population-level effects and carried out at the state level by local fish and wildlife agencies.

The center contends that 3,000 tons of lead is put into the environment every year through ammunition. Another 80,000 tons is used at shooting ranges.

Wildlife -- including sensitive populations of birds -- are exposed to that lead because they scavenge carcasses and ingest used pellets. The center also contends that hunters may be exposed to lead when they eat their prey after using ammunition containing lead.

lilfuzzybuny wrote:http://www.epa.gov/oppt/chemtest/pubs/P ... chment.pdf

straight from the epa website. very real and yes they are going after fishing sinkers

so is there any other metal we could use that wouldn't be a nasty threat to body armor ? thats still inexpensive to make and use and wouldnt tare up a barrel in a heartbeat ?

Fucking spit-balls. Because that's what you'll be left with if you go down the road of trying to appease these poorly disguised anti-2nd amendment freak-jobs.
Seriously? WTF does body armor matter? Rifle bullets will penetrate it.

If you compromise with these jack-asses by agreeing on the 1/2 point of every one of their 1000 bull-s--t issues, you won't be in the middle by the end of day. Instead, you will have given up on 99.99% of your issues.

lilfuzzybuny wrote:so is there any other metal we could use that wouldnt be a nasty threat to body armor ? thats still inexpensive to make and use and wouldnt tare up a barrel in a heartbeat ?

You can keep your goddam spit-balls, and I'll keep my FMJ as covered under the "Shall not be infringed" part of the 2nd amendment.

elcapitan1 wrote:I have read , not sure if it is true, that Freedom Group is owned by Cerberus Capital which is in .....

Need to do a little more research on this.

Why don't you go edit that untrue post before someone cites it as fact? Also, please tell me that you didn't forward the e-mail on to your family and friends.

I don't believe FMJ's were written about in the 2nd amendment. In fact Ammo as a hole could be shut down and they still could SAY they never infringed on your right's to bear arms. And if you ask me that is how it is going down all of it. They will start by adding a hazard tax or fun tax to your ammo and after awhile some will quit buying it. Most have never bought a high end sports car but look at the extra taxes you pay when buying I.E. a Ferrari. or Lamborghini. It will start small and grow till the point only the rich will have the ability to buy the ammo to feed the GUN's and then they will impose a registry to buy ammo because it will be like gold. So the Govt. all the time will still say I never infringed your right to bear arms. Just a thought.

M40A1308M wrote:I don't believe FMJ's were written about in the 2nd amendment. In fact Ammo as a hole could be shut down and they still could SAY they never infringed on your right's to bear arms. And if you ask me that is how it is going down all of it. They will start by adding a hazard tax or fun tax to your ammo and after awhile some will quit buying it. Most have never bought a high end sports car but look at the extra taxes you pay when buying I.E. a Ferrari. or Lamborghini. It will start small and grow till the point only the rich will have the ability to buy the ammo to feed the GUN's and then they will impose a registry to buy ammo because it will be like gold. So the Govt. all the time will still say I never infringed your right to bear arms. Just a thought.

Go look up the definition of "Arms" and you'll find weapons and ammunition to be included. With that said, it won't stop the gun grabbers from trying to change the definition. So, you're most likely right on that point.

Libertarian_Geek wrote:

M40A1308M wrote:I don't believe FMJ's were written about in the 2nd amendment. ...

Go look up the definition of "Arms" and you'll find weapons and ammunition to be included. With that said, it won't stop the gun grabbers from trying to change the definition. So, you're most likely right on that point.

Change the definition or not the way our currently f@cked up legislature works some holier than thou asshole will spearhead something into law and it will take a court case to overturn the unjust law just like gun control in D.C. and other principalities overrun with communists and puppet dictators.

Can you still only buy one box of bullets at a time in Commiefornia? There's an example of some bullshit bordering on infringement.