General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.
Hello all, this be me first post and I am very curious about something now on the market. Go ahead and take a look first (Read the right side of page, from "Solvent Trap" all the way through "Econo Can Silencer") - http://www.cadizgunworks.com/zcstore/
Anyone have thoughts on how/if this would really be effective? I mean.....an oil filter as a can???? I am new to the world of silencers/suppressors, so if you could explain the mechanics of how these things actually work like I were a second-grader, I could really benefit from that.
Has already been discussed here a couple of times. Basically its a waste of money. Once you own one the BATF can say that any oil filter you have is an illegal silencer, also you cannot legally install or replace the filter has to be done by an SOT 02/70 FFL.
ToyotaGuru wrote: ...you cannot legally install or replace the filter has to be done by an SOT 02/70 FFL.
If the tube is replaced by anyone it's a new silencer and needs a new tax stamp.
"Q: If the outer tube is destroyed or damaged beyond repair, may it be replaced?
...the replacement of the outer tube amounts to the making of a new silencer."
silencertalk wrote:Is that always true, or only true if the serial number is on the outer-tube?
That writeup seems to assume that it is the tube which is marked - which is almost always, but not always, the case.
I would say its only true with serial numbered tubes. Silencerco has the serialized potion where the booster assembly sits, and the majority of the tube can be replaced.
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silencertalk wrote:Is that always true, or only true if the serial number is on the outer-tube?
That writeup seems to assume that it is the tube which is marked - which is almost always, but not always, the case.
Whatever part that is serialized can not be replaced. If that is the mount as on some cans the tube can be replaced at will since technically it is not the serialized component.
This is how Silencerco gets away with their design as do a couple other manufacturers.
Even with this oil filter silencer adapter the replacement of the oil filter(and the installation of the first one) would require involvement of an 07/02. Biggest take away is that the ATF does NOT consider this a wipe, so it can not be legally replaced by the end user unless the end user is an 07/02.
All legal issues aside (I am merely interested in how these actually work and the mechanics of the design - totally and completely for informational purposes only), I would just like to know the pros & cons of these vs. the high-end, purpose built cans by Gemtech, Advanced Armament, Liberty, AAC, etc...... You get the picture. I'm just a student of the world of firearms (and everything that comes with it!). Knowledge is power, as they say. I'd like some more knowledge on the subject.
sweetsilence wrote:All legal issues aside (I am merely interested in how these actually work and the mechanics of the design - totally and completely for informational purposes only), I would just like to know the pros & cons of these vs. the high-end, purpose built cans by Gemtech, Advanced Armament, Liberty, AAC, etc...... You get the picture. I'm just a student of the world of firearms (and everything that comes with it!). Knowledge is power, as they say. I'd like some more knowledge on the subject.
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The only mechanics behind them is if you buy the oil filter from a car shop.
Pros of oil filter suppressor. Cheap to build, THATS IT.
Cons of oil filter suppressor End user can't replace it when it blows up. Not enough time in the day to type the rest of the cons out, but there are tons of them.
There is no comparison to commercial suppressor regardless the manufacturer.
Even some of the poorly designed Form1 can I have seen would outperform it.
You should store information about real silencers and how they are built and work don't waste your grey matter on this garbage.
"If a silencer part bearing the serial number, other than the outer tube, must be replaced, the new part must be marked with the same serial number as the replacement part.
The term "repair" does not include replacement of the outer tube of the silencer. The outer tube is the largest single part of the silencer, the main structural component of the silencer, and is the part to which all other component parts are attached. The replacement of the outer tube is so significant an event that it amounts to the "making" of a new silencer. As such, the new silencer must be marked, registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA."
-k- wrote:"If a silencer part bearing the serial number, other than the outer tube, must be replaced, the new part must be marked with the same serial number as the replacement part.
The term "repair" does not include replacement of the outer tube of the silencer. The outer tube is the largest single part of the silencer, the main structural component of the silencer, and is the part to which all other component parts are attached. The replacement of the outer tube is so significant an event that it amounts to the "making" of a new silencer. As such, the new silencer must be marked, registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA."
I have read that as well Todd, and I do wonder how Silencerco is able to replace the entire tube on an Osprey if there were a need. I do not know if it has happened yet, if so it has not been publicized, but I am pretty sure it will cause some chaos when its made known.
-k- wrote:"If a silencer part bearing the serial number, other than the outer tube, must be replaced, the new part must be marked with the same serial number as the replacement part.
The term "repair" does not include replacement of the outer tube of the silencer. The outer tube is the largest single part of the silencer, the main structural component of the silencer, and is the part to which all other component parts are attached. The replacement of the outer tube is so significant an event that it amounts to the "making" of a new silencer. As such, the new silencer must be marked, registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA."
I have read that as well Todd, and I do wonder how Silencerco is able to replace the entire tube on an Osprey if there were a need. I do not know if it has happened yet, if so it has not been publicized, but I am pretty sure it will cause some chaos when its made known.
Can you say NDA?
Yeah, that IS an interesting situation.. for any of these newer cans with alternate serial placement/ tube replacement designs...
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Y'all read way too much into it. Take the tinfoil off, they aren't coming to get you in the dead of night.
The AFT isn't beating down anyone's door to see if they are shooting through an oil filter. They aren't storming your garage when you screw up on a form 1 suppressor tube and you scrap it and make another one. They aren't rappelling through your windows if SilencerCo replaces the front end of your suppressor.
I can personally vouch for the last one cause they replaced mine after a baffle strike as I've heard they have done others. So yeah they've done it, yeah it's public knowledge and no the ATF wasn't their to kick mine or their teeth in after it happened.
You guys really need to lighten up with all the rumors and schoolgirl drama. Can anyone give me a single case where the ATF arrested someone for shooting through an oil filter? What about a coke bottle? How about busting someone for screwing up a form 1 tube, scrapping it and making another? What about someone making a form 1 can and trying different baffle designs?
What about non registered SBR's? I'm sure there are countless thousands of AR's out there with short barreled uppers that were never on a form 1. Anyone do 10 years for that? How about 922 compliance? Anyone busted for that?
I'm not talking about one of these being tacked on to someone who committed a serious crime, I'm talking about a case where John Smith was minding his own business at home and the ATF busted in and shot his dog and took him off to prison for 10 yrs all because he had 4 US made parts on his AK47 instead of 6.
I know the internet commando's love to tell a good jackbooted thug story about how the ATF will bust you the second you even think about cutting that extra wipe for your suppressor but the reality is, it doesn't happen.
I've heard cases of a gun going FA due to mechanical failure and the ATF makes a huge deal out of it but that isn't the norm, it's not an everyday occurrence. They can't read your mind and have no clue whatsoever what you do in the privacy of your own home. I don't condone breaking the law but I also don't believe that they are the all powerful Oz who know and see everything that people try and make them out to be.
T_Tactical wrote: Can anyone give me a single case where the ATF arrested someone for shooting through an oil filter? What about a coke bottle? How about busting someone for screwing up a form 1 tube, scrapping it and making another? What about someone making a form 1 can and trying different baffle designs?
The point is most of us do not want to be in a position that would allow the ATF to arrest us.
I never broke any laws but due to my buying sprees I had a couple of very nice ATF agents show up at my door a few years ago due to one of my handgun buying sprees on a trip to northern Maine that involved multiple purchases at several shops and a gun show that seemed to have allot of firearms I wanted in one place. They simply wanted to verify that I was not acting as a straw buyer for the handguns and did not even inquire about the suppressors or other NFA items in the safes ( I am sure they had the paperwork already though ) they read off what firearms they wanted to check I showed them the serial numbers on them we did this for about 20 handguns and they said thank you and the one guy complemented on my tidy safes.
The point being one never knows what can will happen I have spent allot of money of just stamps alone plus the firearms. Why take a CHANCE on loosing them or your freedom. I err on the side of caution.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
T_Tactical wrote: Can anyone give me a single case where the ATF arrested someone for shooting through an oil filter? What about a coke bottle? How about busting someone for screwing up a form 1 tube, scrapping it and making another? What about someone making a form 1 can and trying different baffle designs?
The point is most of us do not want to be in a position that would allow the ATF to arrest us.
I never broke any laws but due to my buying sprees I had a couple of very nice ATF agents show up at my door a few years ago due to one of my handgun buying sprees on a trip to northern Maine that involved multiple purchases at several shops and a gun show that seemed to have allot of firearms I wanted in one place. They simply wanted to verify that I was not acting as a straw buyer for the handguns and did not even inquire about the suppressors or other NFA items in the safes ( I am sure they had the paperwork already though ) they read off what firearms they wanted to check I showed them the serial numbers on them we did this for about 20 handguns and they said thank you and the one guy complemented on my tidy safes.
The point being one never knows what can will happen I have spent allot of money of just stamps alone plus the firearms. Why take a CHANCE on loosing them or your freedom. I err on the side of caution.
I didn't say anyone should do anything illegal but when people start talking BS about how there will be chaos if SilencerCo has to replace a front tube then it's getting a little ridiculous and the tinfoil is obviously wrapped a little too tight.
T_Tactical wrote: Can anyone give me a single case where the ATF arrested someone for shooting through an oil filter? What about a coke bottle? How about busting someone for screwing up a form 1 tube, scrapping it and making another? What about someone making a form 1 can and trying different baffle designs?
The point is most of us do not want to be in a position that would allow the ATF to arrest us.
I never broke any laws but due to my buying sprees I had a couple of very nice ATF agents show up at my door a few years ago due to one of my handgun buying sprees on a trip to northern Maine that involved multiple purchases at several shops and a gun show that seemed to have allot of firearms I wanted in one place. They simply wanted to verify that I was not acting as a straw buyer for the handguns and did not even inquire about the suppressors or other NFA items in the safes ( I am sure they had the paperwork already though ) they read off what firearms they wanted to check I showed them the serial numbers on them we did this for about 20 handguns and they said thank you and the one guy complemented on my tidy safes.
The point being one never knows what can will happen I have spent allot of money of just stamps alone plus the firearms. Why take a CHANCE on loosing them or your freedom. I err on the side of caution.
I didn't say anyone should do anything illegal but when people start talking BS about how there will be chaos if SilencerCo has to replace a front tube then it's getting a little ridiculous and the tinfoil is obviously wrapped a little too tight.
When you work in the industry like I do, there is no such thing as tin foil being on too tight. Everything is just a matter of time before it happens.
We saw it coming when GemTax happened and everyone said we needed to relax that the ATF wouldn't go that far, and look what happened.
T_Tactical wrote:
I didn't say anyone should do anything illegal but when people start talking BS about how there will be chaos if SilencerCo has to replace a front tube then it's getting a little ridiculous and the tinfoil is obviously wrapped a little too tight.
The ATF being a federal agency and well known for sudden changes in rulings that along with secretive nature of there decision making it is better to be cautious. I worked for the fed ( Navy contract) for 4 years the fed is unpredictable. The issue is when you use the words legal and illegal in conjunction with the ATF there many times is not a clear direct answer. Thus when dealing with them IF you have any question that you do not have written approval of already and there is ANY level of doubt write them a letter with said question and when you have a letter in hand from them saying ti is ok then proceed. Even then remember they can at will with no explanation change there viewpoint thus taking your legal item and making it illegal with nothing more then a few strokes of a pen by a person in a office somewhere. Thus those of us who "play" in this arena for any amount of time are always cautious and recommend others are to.
"If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?"
T_Tactical wrote:
I didn't say anyone should do anything illegal but when people start talking BS about how there will be chaos if SilencerCo has to replace a front tube then it's getting a little ridiculous and the tinfoil is obviously wrapped a little too tight.
The ATF being a federal agency and well known for sudden changes in rulings that along with secretive nature of there decision making it is better to be cautious. I worked for the fed ( Navy contract) for 4 years the fed is unpredictable. The issue is when you use the words legal and illegal in conjunction with the ATF there many times is not a clear direct answer. Thus when dealing with them IF you have any question that you do not have written approval of already and there is ANY level of doubt write them a letter with said question and when you have a letter in hand from them saying ti is ok then proceed. Even then remember they can at will with no explanation change there viewpoint thus taking your legal item and making it illegal with nothing more then a few strokes of a pen by a person in a office somewhere. Thus those of us who "play" in this arena for any amount of time are always cautious and recommend others are to.
Yet another example is the Akins Accelerator. ATF gave the blessing and they sold close to 1000 of them and then the ATF came and said its illegal and subpena'd the sales records and required everyone to forfeit the spring or go to jail.
Only ones that legally function now are in the hands of SOT's as the ATF says they are machineguns.
The Akins is ANOTHER example of people saying the tin foil was on too tight and yet again we were right.
Slide Fire Stocks are the next one on the list i am sure, just a matter of time for the same Akin ruling to be enacted.
I hope they don't ban the slide fire stocks.....they're fun. If they do ban them then wouldn't there need to be a law stating it illegal to bump fire any semi auto weapon?
OJB4 wrote:I hope they don't ban the slide fire stocks.....they're fun. If they do ban them then wouldn't there need to be a law stating it illegal to bump fire any semi auto weapon?
Nope, they would ban the product as calling it a machinegun but more likely the type of product that allows this to work.
Its not bump firing anyways. It is a stock assisted rapid firing.
I can easily see it being classified as a machinegun, especially after the discussions I have had with Tech Branch.
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