Savage Cancels 300 AAC Blackout

[JohnInNH]

I have not experienced stellar accuracy from my 2 different BLK rifles. But I do not expect it. It is what it is. I am, as others are, getting a fairly high ES which limits accuracy at any real distance. At those distances I would NOT use my BLK anyway. Wrong tool for the job.

I also feel the plastic stock on my Micro 7 bolt gun is not helping. I am hoping to replace it with a v block Al bed stock which apparently helps considerably (from the person making it). Till I get a better stock no point spending a lot of time at 200 yards trying to get a 2" group I feel it is more of a 100-150 yard rifle. Which for what it is is fine by me.

3" at 100 is what I suspect most people are getting. Anything under 2" consistently would surprise me.

Not many 30-30's that can shoot close to 2" at 100. Again it comes to expectations. This is NOT a precision round or platform. A custom built premium barreled rifle is one thing but a "mass produced" rifle is another. Many many people consider a 1.5" group from a good quality hunting rifle adequate. An expensive custom 1" is more the norm. sub 1 moa will cost you and is largely ammo dependent as well. I have 3 rifles that consistently shoot 1 MOA or under. A gen one 308 26" FNSPR, + two M700 customs built by G & A Precision. I have others that shoot very well but not like them.

Actually my PSA AR in BLK may be a better platform then the Micro7, but I do not have optics on it yet to really test it. If I get 1 MOA I will be very happy.

I will be doing some shooting with 125 TNT, 168 J4, 152 M2, and what I believe will be very good a 130 gr HP. I am really thinking the BLK favors the 125-130 gr weight.. Time will tell as I will try 175 SMK's as well. (With power pro 300 -MP when I get some.)

I am still running into a lot of NEW factory Remington primed brass that seats to deep in the chamber. This gets light firing pin strikes causing misfires. So I would NOT use this round in a life or death duty situation. This is an inherent design weakness. If you are going to trust your life on this round make sure you set the barrel back to shorten the head space to the LOW end, and or mic your ammo. The minimal shoulder is very inconsistent and I can even see rounds that I feel will be a problem .. sure enough CLICK. I just had 2 more in the last box go "click". (and 2 previously with Jason and Dave this last Sat. Again new brass.)

In many 35 Remington reloading manuals there is a similar warning.. Recommending using a 375" tapered expander, then re neck sizing to .35, and then fire forming for ammo that HAS to be reliable.

From Sierra:

"Some special techniques are applicable when reloading the 35 Rem, which will greatly enhance reliability, accuracy and case life. New unfired cases are made to minimum spec., and will stretch upon the first firing to form a tight fit between the standing breech and chamber shoulder. this, in it's most basic form, is a head space problem. Some sources have suggested that new unfired .35 rem cases be necked up to .375" dia. with a tapered expander, and then necked back down to .35. We STRONGLY recommend this approach........ Never move the shoulder back after it has been established by fire forming."

From Speer:

"To avoid misfires (light primer strikes from bad head space) on the first firing, you can use a 375" dia. tapered expander ball to neck up the case and then carefully re-size only the neck in a 35 Rem sizer until your action will just close on the case. .... Fire forming with near max loads will complete the process, and will perform fine on subsequent firings AS LONG AS YOU NECK RE-SIZE."


This is not a problem with rimmed cases, or rimless with a pronounced shoulder, like the 223, as they will not have light primer strikes from the brass going in to deep in the chamber like the 35 Rem, the 300 BLK, and similar cases are prone to doing.

Unless brass manufacturers starts to make brass that is on the high end of the spec, and insuring good QC, this can easily be at worst a life threatening problem for any duty applications. ESPECIALLY in an AR where you have to eject the round to reset the hammer/firing pin. If you plan on carrying a BLK for duty make sure you test your ammo extensively (I would go as far as saying get a head spacing ammo gauge and check all your ammo)

I have one in 308: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/574297 ... winchester

I WISH I had one in 300 BLK .. That way I could measure all my live ammo for in the field to reduce and maybe even eliminate the light firing pin strikes... If it was for my duty rifle I would mic every round for SURE! I need to sort about 1000 rounds for short head space cases.

Even one like this might help: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614 ... -remington

Savage canceling the BLK may have more to it than just "accuracy", reliability may be another reason. If your gun NEEDS to fire every time, I would check head space in that critical ammo. At the range it's just irritating or inconvenient. In the field it may lead to lost game.. I hate to think of the duty ramifications it could result in.

[jandbj]

John speaks the truth! Saw it with my own eyes last weekend.

[strobro32]

Thanks John for the reliability tip. I will have to do some measuring this week.

[Emilio]

John speaks the truth! Saw it with my own eyes last weekend.

In the AR or model 7? I have no light strike problems on my PSA AR.

Also make your own brass, some factory is too short.

[Emilio]

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 28&t=80093

These are the kind of postings that people over look. It nice of him to post his loads to.

Not bad for 100 yards.

[JohnInNH]

Check n see what rifle shot those groups. A custom just like I said. I am not overlooking them. What is the ES of those shots, and if you then run those variations in ballistic SW you can see the potential results good or bad. But that data will explain why at 500 and more it can be a problem for those who have misguided expectations. Understanding a calibers shortcomings as well as its positive attributes is the key. The BLK has both good and some not as good points. For it's designed mission the shortcomings are inconsequential. The exception is the brass issue.


I just hope all the brass manufactures fix the problem and implement QC to prevent bad brass from being sold or used to make loaded ammo. It may be the QC on loaded ammo is weeding the lower spec brass out, and the problem is restricted to empty primed brass. I am not going to shoot all my factory loaded match ammo to find out. I will use a gauge to check it when I get it.


The head spacing issue is not the rifle but the brass. I have the problem in both my PSA and Micro 7. I have had the head space checked in both rifles. The PSA even has a low end spec chamber and some of the Remington new factory primed brass will set in the chamber to deep due to a minimal shoulder. Its more of a slant than a shoulder . If you look at it you can tell which ones may be a problem. Holding it next to a good piece of brass it is very evident. The micro 7 chamber is in the middle of the spec, dead on.

I just ordered a Wilson head space/case length gauge from midway. I hope i can measure loaded ammo with it in addition to empty brass. That way I can sort my ammo. I like the more expensive RCBS set, but they do not have it in BLK yet. It actually will measure and tell you how far off it is. A real handy tool. A must if you have the Dillon carbide 308 sizing die as it allows you to set the shoulder shorter then spec. You can not set he die to touch the shell holder. If you do you can have a head separation very easily.

I do expect after I restock my Micro 7 it will be a MOA or less rifle with the right loads. The barrel on the PSA may do as well with again the right load at 200 yards and less. I am very satisfied with the performance with the exception of the brass problem. The ES issue I am still working on. With annealing , meticulous brass prep, and the right loads it can be reduced. It just takes work.

Once i get a scope for it I will start working on wringing out accuracy with it. I will post my results.

[57fairlane]

It really sounds like you are just offended that somebody isn't automatically convinced that .300blk is an accurate round.

No, when you don't clarify "problems" on the internet then they will 100% of the time propagate and then I guarantee you it will be all over every forum that 300BLK in subsonic is 1.5MOA just like AAC's 51t mount/Gemtech's anodized baffles/Surefire's plug welds/every other problem on the internet that is so horrendous that you should never buy another product from that company despite 1% of the people that have those products have those particular issues.

AND I would have been the one that started it.

300 blackout is a fantastic round and I have been a fan of the idea back in the whisper/fireball days before Robert decided to take it mainstream and its unfair to label it 1.5MOA on one custom rifle that certainly wasn't built for accuracy.

[vz58]

I have numerous Blackout rifles. All of them I have cut and chambered the barrels.
For supersonic hunting I use the Green Mountain gatlin gun barrels. they are 1-10" and between 16 and 18" long, lightweights, bulls flutes not flutes etc. All are pretty consistent.

They HATE Hornady 110 gr. They run 4.5" groups with it.

Most of them run under 1 MOA with 17.8gr (one likes 18.8gr) H110 behind barnes black tips

The subs and pistols use 1-8 twist bbls. They are clearly more accurate but I have yet to go and measure 100 yard groups.

From my personal experience I like to hand load and I can load to the gun.

The 125 gr pink tip AAC gave me .56" groups at 50 yards (from deer stand to corn pile area for my son).

[JohnInNH]

This is why we had light primer strikes. The brass should be flush.. Not 0.024" under spec.



The factory Rem Primed Brass looks to have has a bad batch with all under spec, a few this bad, but most at 0.012" or so under spec. They WILL fire. .. LOADED ammo from Remington that *I* have does not have the short head space problem just the bulk primed brass .. Now if another company bought the bulk brass and loaded it like the pink tip or other small ammo companies.. there may be suspect ammo out there. Get a case gauge and check your ammo. Best $25 I have spent.


I sorted 2000 300 BLK rounds last night. I have a bunch that are bad mixed in but non in my factory Rem loaded ammo. Just one bad round. No big deal. All the head space was fine in my 12 boxes. one bad out of 240 rounds. BFD.

[ncorry]

Is this the one you got?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/714043 ... t-762x35mm

[epicdoom]

A few years ago I bought a brand new Savage. The bore was not concentric with the threads. I called them and they said it was threaded to accept silencers, but I had to have it re-threaded before I could use it. Here is a photo that I took of the muzzle - the lines are all the same length:

Even without the lines I can see thats not concentric I'm puzzled because savage is said to put there quality in there barreling. I'm not a huge fan of Savage and not without ever owning them. I have had several riffles and still have one that I'll never part with. Maybe just my luck in purchasing I dont know. Just never had much luck or love for them.

[wolf]

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd33 ... _2962a.jpg



OK ,,i bite

How is that possible ??

I mean , IF the round went of IN a chamber

wouldn't it have expanded to fill out the chamber ??

in my experience a to short a round , will go to deep in = creating excessive headspace , that will leed to a case head rapture

so if the case shown was fired ,,how come it didnt grow and is now the size of the chamber it was fired in ??

clearly it is to short for the gauge , and clearly it was fired

too short rounds can happen if the dies are not set right , that can push the shoulder back
both during rezizing
and setting the bullet

primed cases , should have the right length havv you cheeked the cases before setting the bullet

[Emilio]

John speaks the truth! Saw it with my own eyes last weekend.

In the AR or model 7? I have no light strike problems on my PSA AR.

Also make your own brass, some factory is too short.

Again, why not make your own brass? I do this and not the reloader you are. However I trusting myself more than Remington !

[epicdoom]

Emilio are you just resizing the 5.56 case and cutting it down? I'm working on a build for the 300 Blackout. I will be reloading for this round.

Joe

[JohnInNH]

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd33 ... _2962a.jpg



OK ,,i bite

How is that possible ??

I mean , IF the round went of IN a chamber

wouldn't it have expanded to fill out the chamber ??

in my experience a to short a round , will go to deep in = creating excessive headspace , that will leed to a case head rapture

so if the case shown was fired ,,how come it didnt grow and is now the size of the chamber it was fired in ??

clearly it is to short for the gauge , and clearly it was fired

too short rounds can happen if the dies are not set right , that can push the shoulder back
both during rezizing
and setting the bullet

primed cases , should have the right length havv you cheeked the cases before setting the bullet

If you read my post in context you will read that round did not fire. That was two clicks. First was a light strike.. I then lifted the bolt pulled the bolt back 1/2 inch closed bolt and CLICK a second time. The brass is so far forward in the chamber the firing pin will not strike adequately to fire the round. They are also subs and will not fire form. The brass will set back unlike a full power round that will swell the case fast and hard enough to hold it such that the brass will stretch to fill the chamber.

If that piece of brass was a full power round and it did go off it would probably have a head separation.

A misfire in a duty situation may be more deadly than a separation as the reason to use lethal force would not be stopped and they may stop you instead.

[Emilio]

Emilio are you just resizing the 5.56 case and cutting it down? I'm working on a build for the 300 Blackout. I will be reloading for this round.

Joe

Yes, I cut,then chamfer. then size, then trim, then chamfer. and also anneal.

I cut "like" this but with better jug. (cutter is $25 blade stay sharp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws5H9q3CTe8

Or you can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgH0DXVaZCg

Then I trim with a small cordles on a jig "like" this , if you cut/size good you have little to trim. (one zip) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j65zHxVenz8

Many smart and many dumb peoples on youtube doing BLK ,pick the smart ones.

223 brass is everywere free and cheap,, if you shoot with cops it's free.

[Emilio]

Hey John, I doubting duty guys have to worry when TAP and other ammo comes out in 300BLK.

[Unobtanium]

The 6.8 SPC had a lot of momentum behind it, but it petered out. I am reserved on the 300 AAC.

Maybe totally irrelevant, but neat nonetheless.
http://www.google.com/trends/?q=300+AAC ... l&date=all
http://www.google.com/trends/?q=6.8+SPC ... all&sort=0
http://www.google.com/trends/?q=5.56mm& ... l&date=all

[silencertalk]

http://www.google.com/trends/?q=6.8+SPC ... all&sort=0

[epicdoom]

Emilio are you just resizing the 5.56 case and cutting it down? I'm working on a build for the 300 Blackout. I will be reloading for this round.

Joe

Yes, I cut,then chamfer. then size, then trim, then chamfer. and also anneal.

I cut "like" this but with better jug. (cutter is $25 blade stay sharp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws5H9q3CTe8

Or you can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgH0DXVaZCg

Then I trim with a small cordles on a jig "like" this , if you cut/size good you have little to trim. (one zip) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j65zHxVenz8

Many smart and many dumb peoples on youtube doing BLK ,pick the smart ones.

223 brass is everywere free and cheap,, if you shoot with cops it's free.

Emilio thanx for that information I have a ton of 223 nato brass SS 109 rounds, I had planed on melting down to cast something from. Will be keeping it now for reloading. I also clean out my local range so I should get a bunch more up till not I been melting them down from the range.

Joe