Savage Cancels 300 AAC Blackout

[markm]

Poor accuracy in subsonics.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... e-project/

[srt-4_uk]

This has been on Savage's homepage for months now.

[EagleKeeper]

This has been on Savage's homepage for months now.

Yep old news, and pretty short sighted of them. Seriously weak ass "reason".

[Emilio]

I think they cheap out and chamber some 308 barrels (1-10 twist.) Then blame on the round.

This was posted here.

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 28&t=79502

[DarkStar]

I'm not so sure. I bought a Rem700 in .17 Fireball and had some fairly in-depth conversations with two custom shops that are active here on SilencerTalk. They both gave a preliminary "acceptance" of my project - converting the rifle to an integral SBR bolt in .300blk. They BOTH backed out and walked away, citing reliability, feeding, and accuracy concerns. I haven't shot .300blk yet, so I can't comment from experience, but this is the 3rd manufacturer backing away from a .300blk rifle using accuracy as a reason.... just sayin...

[Emilio]

I'm not so sure. I bought a Rem700 in .17 Fireball and had some fairly in-depth conversations with two custom shops that are active here on SilencerTalk. They both gave a preliminary "acceptance" of my project - converting the rifle to an integral SBR bolt in .300blk. They BOTH backed out and walked away, citing reliability, feeding, and accuracy concerns. I haven't shot .300blk yet, so I can't comment from experience, but this is the 3rd manufacturer backing away from a .300blk rifle using accuracy as a reason.... just sayin...

300blk is plenty accurate, specially with HV and quality sub sonic reloads. Some bolt guns need adjustment on extraction and ejection and Converting Savage rifles can be done for low cost.

For Savage to say 300 BLK no meet their standards when they using a 1-10 twist barrel is both lazy and stupid!

[srt-4_uk]

For Savage to say 300 BLK no meet their standards when they using a 1-10 twist barrel is both lazy and stupid!

Can you provide an accurate source that says they were using a 1:10 twist barrel?

[hunter2]

The lazy part - they won't tighten up the tolerances on the bolt head to allow reliable extraction. I had to go to Winchester brass ( had thicker rim ) and install a button head ejector from SSS and new extractor with larger detent ball. All things they could do. Using the acc excuse is a bunch of BS.

[Emilio]

Can you provide an accurate source that says they were using a 1:10 twist barrel?

Savage never posted data, they say they try many twists yet not get good groups? The is " BS". they just no want to deal with mods require for reliability and accuracy in a 300blk bolt actions because it not fit the rest of their cookie cutter rifles.

They say they have "standards" but never improved their bolts in many years!

I like shooting Savage rifles but they are starting to think they high end now.

[srt-4_uk]

So you dont have any proof that they were using 1:10 twist barrels. Just checking.

[Emilio]

So you dont have any proof that they were using 1:10 twist barrels. Just checking.

"#3251329 - 04/10/12 07:28 PM Re: Savage walks away from the 300blk [Re: 346ci]
rsilvers
AAC R&D

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 997
When Savage announced the rifle, most 300 BLK people wrote it off immediately because of the 1:10 twist and 20 inch barrel (the subsonic ammo is only designed to stay subsonic in 16 inch or shorter barrels). If the goal was to design a 300 BLK rifle that was not accurate with subsonic, you would use too slow a twist and too long a barrel. They did not do their homework, and gave up rather than ask for help.
_________________________
300 AAC Blackout has as much energy from a 16 inch barrel as 5.56mm from a 24 inch barrel. You get 8 inches of barrel for free."

[srt-4_uk]

Did he work on the project with Savage?

[L1A1Rocker]

Did he work on the project with Savage?

You sound like you are either purposefully being argumentative or have a financial/personal interest in Savage.

Roberts' credentials are well known, the accuracy results of others with the 300BLK are also well known (even with the Savage). I don't know what your beef is but you're taken a turn into trollish territory.

[chrismartin]

A 1:10 reference, 20" barrel:

http://catalog.ammodepot.com/itemdetail ... ber=G19624

While not definitive, by any means, a part number was issued for the product and a few online places were showing all the same data, 1:10 and 20" barrel.

Also:

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 74&start=0

There were several posts about them using 1:10 and a 20" barrel as well.

[Emilio]

A 1:10 reference, 20" barrel:

http://catalog.ammodepot.com/itemdetail ... ber=G19624

While not definitive, by any means, a part number was issued for the product and a few online places were showing all the same data, 1:10 and 20" barrel.

Also:

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtop ... 74&start=0

There were several posts about them using 1:10 and a 20" barrel as well.

Thank you, most of the ads where gone when I tried to find them again.

[srt-4_uk]

Did he work on the project with Savage?

You sound like you are either purposefully being argumentative or have a financial/personal interest in Savage.

Roberts' credentials are well known, the accuracy results of others with the 300BLK are also well known (even with the Savage). I don't know what your beef is but you're taken a turn into trollish territory.

I just wanted factual data. Not hearsay. I dont see how it's trollish at all.

[57fairlane]

Having built an integral model seven in 300BLK . . . I could have saved Savage all their R&D costs and told them a 1:10 with a 20" barrel wouldn't work.

The barrel I did is cut down to 9", OAL length from recoil lug to end cap is 17.25".

1.5" groups at 100 yards using a bipod (no bench rest, sorry).

The bullet drop is a lot I'm sure out past 200yds but to say it isn't accurate means Savage screwed up, not the round.

[DarkStar]

1.5" groups at 100 yards using a bipod (no bench rest, sorry).

With all due respect, I've come to expect much better accuracy than 1.5MOA from Savage. If their experience was the same as yours, I might be able to understand their decision. My Model 10 cost under $800 and shoots 0.5 - 0.8 MOA all day long off my bipod. If I paid for a Savage that shot 1.5MOA, I'd be unhappy with my purchase.

Is 1.5 MOA what most people are seeing from .300blk?

[57fairlane]

1.5" groups at 100 yards using a bipod (no bench rest, sorry).

With all due respect, I've come to expect much better accuracy than 1.5MOA from Savage. If their experience was the same as yours, I might be able to understand their decision. My Model 10 cost under $800 and shoots 0.5 - 0.8 MOA all day long off my bipod. If I paid for a Savage that shot 1.5MOA, I'd be unhappy with my purchase.

Is 1.5 MOA what most people are seeing from .300blk?

I was hesitant to use any actual numbers so I will leave them as is but preface my 1.5" group (I don't have the actual targets anymore, have long since been thrown away) with the following:

1. I am not a sniper/marksman/etc I simply enjoy shooting and have zero formal training in any kind of marksmanship training. I am machinist, nothing more.

2. The subsonic I used was marked "Slightly Imperfect: Cartridges will experience a low frequency misfire rate".

It was the 4th monocore I made for it, and was the quietest one tested. The emphasis was on sound signature (did very well) and was shot out to 100yards one time by me only back in february. The barrel is also heavily ported and greatly reduced in diameter under the outer tube down to around .750" I believe (larger over the chamber). I machined the barrel, tube, and end cap back in november; metered it back then; shot it 3 months ago.

When I get around to messing with it again (with my schedule I have no idea when), I can give you a more accurate result.

I would stress that my experience with building an integral should have little bearing on whether or not a large company with actual rifle engineers can make an accurate rifle that A. isn't a integral and B. is more than 9" long

[Tater_ga]

1.5" groups at 100 yards using a bipod (no bench rest, sorry).

With all due respect, I've come to expect much better accuracy than 1.5MOA from Savage. If their experience was the same as yours, I might be able to understand their decision. My Model 10 cost under $800 and shoots 0.5 - 0.8 MOA all day long off my bipod. If I paid for a Savage that shot 1.5MOA, I'd be unhappy with my purchase.

Is 1.5 MOA what most people are seeing from .300blk?

For those who are comparing 300BLK to 7.62, 300Win Mag, or any other rifle cartridge you need to include the amount of signature reduction associated with the other calibers. Show me another SAAMI round that has the same amount of performance in regards to accuracy, sound reduction (with a silencer), and expansion. There is an obvious expectation that some people have from their rifles, but you have to compare apples to apples.

For most of us, having the ability to shoot 1.5MOA is accurate enough to fit your needs. Granted, if you are going to shoot long range competitions or you're wanting something for outside of 400yds, then 300BLK is not what you're looking for. 1.5MOA means that you are grouping 1.5" at 100yds, 3" at 200yds, and 4.5" at 300yds. If you are aiming center mass on a "zombie's head" (PC way of saying person), you are still getting a head shot.

Now, take this to a hunting scenario. A heart shot on a deer is around 10", a hogs head is closer to 12"-15", and most other animals that you would be hunting in N. America with this weapon are not much bigger. Most of which are smaller. So, you have to understand what are your limitations and expectations.

If you live in Texas, then you will be able to hunt with a silencer starting in September. There are a ton of other states, including the great state of Ga , that are pushing towards the same direction.

In no way am I trying to call anyone out, or trying to argue anything. I am just stating that the "problems" associated with this round are problems in how people are assessing its capabilities.

Just my 2 pennies.

[DarkStar]

1.5" groups at 100 yards using a bipod (no bench rest, sorry).

Is 1.5 MOA what most people are seeing from .300blk?

In no way am I trying to call anyone out, or trying to argue anything. I am just stating that the "problems" associated with this round are problems in how people are assessing its capabilities.

Just my 2 pennies.

Understood. I do quite a bit of shooting and also suppressed hunting... If I may distill your response down a bit... it sounds like you are answering my question with a....

"Yes, 1.5MOA is what people are seeing, but there are other things to consider."

Fair interpretation?

[wolf]

1.5" groups at 100 yards using a bipod (no bench rest, sorry).

With all due respect, I've come to expect much better accuracy than 1.5MOA from Savage. If their experience was the same as yours, I might be able to understand their decision. My Model 10 cost under $800 and shoots 0.5 - 0.8 MOA all day long off my bipod. If I paid for a Savage that shot 1.5MOA, I'd be unhappy with my purchase.

Is 1.5 MOA what most people are seeing from .300blk?

For those who are comparing 300BLK to 7.62, 300Win Mag, or any other rifle cartridge you need to include the amount of signature reduction associated with the other calibers. Show me another SAAMI round that has the same amount of performance in regards to accuracy, sound reduction (with a silencer), and expansion. There is an obvious expectation that some people have from their rifles, but you have to compare apples to apples.


,
For most of us, having the ability to shoot 1.5MOA is accurate enough to fit your needs. Granted, if you are going to shoot long range competitions or you're wanting something for outside of 400yds, then 300BLK is not what you're looking for. 1.5MOA means that you are grouping 1.5" at 100yds, 3" at 200yds, and 4.5" at 300yds. If you are aiming center mass on a "zombie's head" (PC way of saying person), you are still getting a head shot.

Now, take this to a hunting scenario. A heart shot on a deer is around 10", a hogs head is closer to 12"-15", and most other animals that you would be hunting in N. America with this weapon are not much bigger. Most of which are smaller. So, you have to understand what are your limitations and expectations.

If you live in Texas, then you will be able to hunt with a silencer starting in September. There are a ton of other states, including the great state of Ga , that are pushing towards the same direction.

In no way am I trying to call anyone out, or trying to argue anything. I am just stating that the "problems" associated with this round are problems in how people are assessing its capabilities.

Just my 2 pennies.

just because you get a 1,5 INCH group at 100 yards, dosnt mean you automatically get on that is twice as big at 200 yards , in theory it could be smaller

bullets dont fly straight. a group can open and close several times at longer distances

if you are shooting a something at 100 yards , you have to know how you rounds behave at that distances

if 200 test at that distance

if both , well test at both

it might be that the bullet hasn't calmed down at 100 yards

[Artful]

1.5" groups at 100 yards using a bipod (no bench rest, sorry).

With all due respect, I've come to expect much better accuracy than 1.5MOA from Savage. If their experience was the same as yours, I might be able to understand their decision. My Model 10 cost under $800 and shoots 0.5 - 0.8 MOA all day long off my bipod. If I paid for a Savage that shot 1.5MOA, I'd be unhappy with my purchase.

so for 0.5-.0.8 MOA are you shooting
a) Hunting weight barrel or Heavy weight barrel?
b) off a bipod or bench rest?
c) Subsonic or Supersonic?
d) low power scope or high power scope or Iron Sights?
e) Do you have a wood stock, factory plastic stock or bedded custom stock?

There are many variables involved in accuracy - I know a few AR15 heavy barrel shooters of 300 whisper getting 1 MOA or under with supersonic loads - but subsonic loadings require more out of the shooter (ie follow thru is VERY important). That's one reason when I was teaching kids and used subsonic cartridges it showed more about their follow thru than high velocity 22LR's did.

[silencertalk]

A few years ago I bought a brand new Savage. The bore was not concentric with the threads. I called them and they said it was threaded to accept silencers, but I had to have it re-threaded before I could use it. Here is a photo that I took of the muzzle - the lines are all the same length:

[srt-4_uk]

that sucks.

fwiw, the way you took that picture, even if concetric, the lines would never be the same length because you took it from an angle. you would need a picture straight down the bore.