Should I Form 4 or Trust? Bunch of questions...

[wacki]

Questions:

1. Other than the cost of setting up a trust, is there any advantage to a Form 4?
2. I know you can add people to a trust, but how much does that cost? Just the notary fee?
3. Can you remove someone from the trust against their will? In case of divorce (assuming some kind of prenup), split with gf, etc...
4. Can you add / remove people as often as you want for life?
5. If I form 4 my suppressor to myself and then make a trust, I'll have to pay another form 4 $200 fee to x-fer it to my trust right?
6. I live in Indiana, know any good trust lawyers?
7. Expected cost to set up a trust?
8. How well do trusts deal with interstate moves? Is there a list of states that don't handle NFA trust / moves well?
9. Anyone on the trust can shoot/hold/store the items by the trust right?

I realize this is a lot of questions. I've got a form 4 sitting in my hand and a can at the shop. Wondering if I should ditch this for a trust. Thanks in advance!

[Wahnsinn]

Even if you run as a trust, you still do the form 4, it's just individual vs trust/corp/etc.

1. Just the cost as far as I know.
2. Think it depends how you amend the trust, if you're able to do it (correctly) then just the notary fee, otherwise a lawyer may charge to amend it for you.
3. I'll leave this up to somebody who knows better.
4. Believe so, yes.
5. Yes.
6. Nope.
7. Anywhere from $20 - $400? Low end is buying software, high end is having a lawyer do it.
8. I'll leave this up to somebody who knows better.
9. Yes, one of the big advantages of a trust if you plan on having multiple people in the trust that actually want to use the items.

[Islander]

Notary is not required to amend your trust. And you don't have to inform ANYONE. You can add a trustee by adding their name in pen if you like, as long as you sign and date it. Best way is to create an amendment. Just add a sheet of paper. Give it an amendment number or letter. And specify the additional trustee. Then sign and date it.

Of course you can always reprint the trust with the added trustee and get it notarized. Again, you are not required to notify BATF or anyone else (you may have refile, depending on your state's requirements). And a notary should cost absolutely nothing. Your bank should do this for free.

[doubloon]

On 3&4, I think yes adding and removing people is possible but it may depend on the title of the removor or removee ... the difference between a trustee, settlor, beneficiary and grantor. As long as you have the right title you can add or remove people.

On 8, it's my understanding you can move a revocable trust to another state by changing its situs. I think an irrevocable trust is harder to move.

On 9 it's my understanding there's a difference between a trustee, settlor, beneficiary and grantor so it depends on what you mean by "anyone" on the trust. I beieve only "trustees" can have legal possession of the item.

SCTexas has a good FAQ but I don't think it covers absolurely all your questions http://www.texasnfatrust.com/products.htm

[wacki]

My main concern is that I want to be able to put friends and family on my NFA trust so they can legally shoot it. However, I don't want sour relationships/friendships to cause ownership issues. I believe the legal term is “constructive transfer” .

Is there a happy medium? All people on the trust are able to shoot it right?

I'm hiring a lawyer next week so I'll ask these questions (among others).

[MV10]

This is why I went with Apple Law ... their trust comes with a giant stack of instructions. Mine was $350. Considering what the rest of this hobby costs, the difference is pretty minimal and EVERY question I have seen asked here (yours included) about trusts is answered in all the supplemental documentation. Anyone who has used contracts and lawsharks in a professional capacity already knows that in theory you can always do your own legal work (e.g. the cheap software route) but should the day come you actually find yourself in court, chances are high you'll wish you coughed up the extra couple bills.

The instructions cover transfers (intrastate and interstate), successor trustees, amendments, transport of NFA items, etc.

Anyway, the trust will set you up as Trustee which gives you full "operational" control of the Trust (not just assets, but also of distribution). You will also name yourself as Settlor which is the primary person (or people if you name a Co-Settlor) who receives the "value" of the trust, and the Settlors also control who is Trustee. So basically the Settlors have ultimate control (they can replace the Trustee) but this is why I wrote that the Trustee have "operational" control of the trust and its assets (including changing Co-Trustees, adding assets, disposing of assets, etc.)

The Trustee can make changes to the trust without input from or notice to anyone else. Co-Trustees do not have this control. From the outset my trust had an Amendment which names a close family friend as a Co-Trustee. This permits him to possess and use our NFA items but he has no control over the people in the trust. But technically he has the power to dispose (transfer/sell) those items as Co-Trustee, so it isn't something to be done lightly.

The trust can name a Settlor's Beneficiary which is the person (or people) who receive the property of the trust after death of all the Settlors, and there are a few other classes (like successors) that my trust doesn't get into.

Another difference between a "gun trust" and a regular trust (Bendersquint should be along shortly to remind us that a "gun trust" doesn't exist, legally) is that it includes extra language which defines firearms-related concerns, such as what happens if one (or all) of the parties named becomes legally ineligible to own these controlled items.

Obviously I'm no lawyer and this information is worth what you paid for it.

[Abiqua]

All people on the trust are able to shoot it right?

Anyone who is not restricted from firearms possession (such as felons) can shoot your NFA items with you present whether they are listed on your trust or not.

[wacki]

This is why I went with Apple Law ... their trust comes with a giant stack of instructions. Mine was $350. Considering what the rest of this hobby costs, the difference is pretty minimal and EVERY question I have seen asked here (yours included) about trusts is answered in all the supplemental documentation.

It's $600 for Indiana

May still take the plung. Nobody else seems to come even close to this guy ... information wise.

[MV10]

It's $600 for Indiana

May still take the plung. Nobody else seems to come even close to this guy ... information wise.

It's $350 if you're "in the business" (I run a local shooting website, that was good enough for them), and SOME of their websites state $325 or thereabouts -- a friend of mine just did his through one of those sites. Apple owns a ton of related websites. Do some searching...

[wacki]

Got the discount...

I'm in the process getting an "Advanced Trust". It's still early in the game but so far I have a good feeling about everything. Everything is supported with lifetime updates/questions. He has a lightning fast response time and his emails are cut and pasted but very information rich. He called me up and we chatted about random gun stuff for about 20 minutes.

Interesting tip: Apparently a silencer is classified as a weapon and you can get hit on brandishing charges. Treat it like a loaded pistol. He said it's extremely rare for that to happen but legally they can and have done it.

Accept or dismiss as FUD at your discretion. When it comes to the fed/govs I err on the side of conservatism.

[Bendersquint]

Got the discount...

I'm in the process getting an "Advanced Trust". It's still early in the game but so far I have a good feeling about everything. Everything is supported with lifetime updates/questions. He has a lightning fast response time and his emails are cut and pasted but very information rich. He called me up and we chatted about random gun stuff for about 20 minutes.

Interesting tip: Apparently a silencer is classified as a weapon and you can get hit on brandishing charges. Treat it like a loaded pistol. He said it's extremely rare for that to happen but legally they can and have done it.

Accept or dismiss as FUD at your discretion. When it comes to the fed/govs I err on the side of conservatism.

I would love to see a single case where someone was charged with brandishing(even if dropped) by just having a silencer visible. A single case...I bet they can't provide that just like they can't provide information for any of the other "horror" stories that make using a gun trust lawyer beneficial.

[rogerme]

Interesting tip: Apparently a silencer is classified as a weapon and you can get hit on brandishing charges. Treat it like a loaded pistol. He said it's extremely rare for that to happen but legally they can and have done it.

I call BS as well. Without being attached to a firearm please have your guy cite ONE just one instance of a person being charged with brandishing a suppressor.

[Libertarian_Geek]

...

Interesting tip: Apparently a silencer is classified as a weapon and you can get hit on brandishing charges. Treat it like a loaded pistol. He said it's extremely rare for that to happen but legally they can and have done it.

...

I say, cite an instance or hedge the "tip" with "I've been told". But you seriously loose any potential credibility regurgitating crap like that.