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 Post subject: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:23 am 
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I know that similar posts are spread throughout the internet....I have spent the better part of a week now searching via google.

However, most of those threads went off in a direction that did not satisfy my questions..

1. Which will suppress quieter out of a 16" barrel and which for an SBR...if I go 9mm it will be SBR'd (each with the same can, whatever it need be)?
2. Are there any links to technical specs on decibels for both, videos, etc? I would suppose it might be more difficult given temp, elevation, rounds, equipment, etc. for consistency like this.



The main thing is that yes, the 300 will be more expensive to shoot but from what I have seen so far, a decent 9mm build is going to cost me a lot more up front....like I said, if I go 9mm I will SBR it and that is a $200 stamp, the suppressor is a $200 stamp, the modifications to make it run (which is why I wouldn't do a build off my DDM4V5 and I will have a separate 9mm rifle).....and, with the 300 blackout/whisper, I would buy an upper (although I know I would only need the barrel....of course the stamp for the can but I would not SBR the 300blackout, at least not initially.



Like I said, pretty similar but none of the threads I found had a definitive answer and some were asking between other calibers, etc.....I just want to know, out of an AR platform, which will suppress better; the 9mm AR or the 300 Blackout/whisper? Also if anyone has specs on what their rifles run (decibels if anyone has metered it) that can serve as a rough guide for me as well.



ETA: I might look into the Rock River Arms LAR-9 (the lower) if I go the 9mm route just for cost reasons...so any input on this as well is appreciated.

Thanks for any and all help!


Last edited by Whitebrad25 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:19 am 
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What are you going to do/shoot with it?


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:56 pm 
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I have both, don't decide on sound alone!

Questions for you.

Are you buying 9mm suppressor?
Do you have 9mm pistols?
Fun or self protection?
Do you reload?
Do you have 22's or 22 suppressor?
Why SBR just the 9mm?

I can't SBR here so I building pistol AR's too!, the 300 BLK works great in pistols. (unlike 556)


For me the 300BLK is more quiet because no blowback bolt, however I mostly use a 308 can on the BLK. The 9mm is more easy to reload and cheaper to feed and goes with way more hosts.



Do you own Glocks? If so get this lower! (I just finish this one.) :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:36 pm 
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I don't own any Glocks (don't love the ergo's on them....but with ALL of the different firearms that work with their mags I have no doubt I will at some point for that reason alone).

I currently have 9mm, 22lr, 45acp, 5.56 chambered firearms. The only can I have ATM (and it is pending) is a SS sparrow. I just set up my trust and everything a little over a month ago and bought my first suppressor that week.

If it helps anyone push me one way or the other (though sound suppression is a big factor for me....I also prefer the look of the Blackout since the magazines don't look so strange).

I plan on having a can for the .45acp and that is pretty much it....if I get 300 blackout I will suppress it as well. The 9mm I have is my Walther PPS and it is my daily carry so I don't really plan on suppressing it :lol: . However, if I did a 9mm SBR I would also buy a can for it.

I was thinking if I do go the route of 9mm that I would just be the completed lower from RRA.....but, as stated, it seems getting started on this is going to be expensive....and from what I read the 9mm builds can be touchy...


The purpose is purely fun. I carry a 9mm daily for protection and I have a shotgun for the house.
I do not reload...excluding startup costs, I have considered it (I shoot bi-weekly)
I would just SBR the 9mm build because SBRs, from my experience, add sound. Well, my main goal here is to run the quietest semi-auto rig I can so SBR'ing the 300blackout seemed a little counter productive to that goal.


Thanks guys/gals.


Last edited by Whitebrad25 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:41 pm 
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John Titsworth wrote:
What are you going to do/shoot with it?


I mentioned above just now that it will be for the range. I just go to the range very often though.


It is also a cool factor. I don't mind the costs for ammo....I will accrue some rounds while I wait for the build to finish and the can to come in.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:36 pm 
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A 9mm AR upper with any length barrel will be quieter suppressed than a 300 upper supersonic or subsonic ammo.
But then this could change if a not so good 9mm can is used on the 9mm upper.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:28 pm 
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redtazdog wrote:
A 9mm AR upper with any length barrel will be quieter suppressed than a 300 upper supersonic or subsonic ammo.
But then this could change if a not so good 9mm can is used on the 9mm upper.



I get where you are going with this but, to me, NFA items do not have a tag. I buy the best that I can buy. IMO budget NFA items don't make sense since the $200 stamp itself is costly; why save the extra $150-$200 instead of buying top of the line? Although I am still undecided on a can, I will likely be set back $1,100-$1,200 on the stamp and can.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:20 pm 
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I've got both in 16" guns. The 9mm is going to be quieter. I've got a Noveske 300 Fireball chamber, that they report is compatible with the 300BLK. From what I gather, the primary difference is mine has a larger gas port, which helps when shooting subs, and I may be overgassed for supers.

Consider that you have more than double the amount of powder pushing the 300. Also, you can run much faster powders in 9mm, which is going to help ensure you have a more complete burn prior to the gas reaching the suppressor. Both of these factors mean the can has less work to do with the 9mm vs. the .300.

Greater port noise was mentioned with the 9mm. While this is true, there are things you can do to mitigate it. I believe when I shot the video linked below, I was running a heavy AAC rate reducing buffer. I can get away with using a standard rifle buffer shooting 9mm suppressed / subsonic, but I run into issues when trying to shoot suppressed / supersonic. The can increases the amount of back pressure and cranks the bolt velocity up too high, causing bolt-over malfunctions. I usually do okay with a rifle buffer, but I often have issues when trying to shoot with a carbine stock. This is true even when using an AAC rate reducing buffer in the shorter stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIvZ1RTXUzU

If you're just looking for a range toy, either will work fine. You can poke holes in paper and knock around tin cans equally well with either. You should get better long-range accuracy with the 300. As noted, you get a quieter package with the 9mm. At this point, it may just be a matter of personal preference.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:01 pm 
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But in your vid you say, "about the same,,,sorta". :mrgreen:

No way is my 9mm carbines (2) are as quiet as my pistols and I think the gas port at the right ear makes more noise.

My 300 BLK with 308 can and 220 subs has a nice sound (like my pistols) this may be because DI gas to bolt. Maybe it the lower tone and on edge of under gassed for subs.

Both plenty quiet and happy to have both.

To the OP, if just a range toy get the 9mm cheaper to shoot both suppressed and not. 300 BLK can have just as many issues as 9mm if not set up right. (9mm actually slightly easier, no gas port to deal with timing)

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Whitebrad25 wrote:
redtazdog wrote:
A 9mm AR upper with any length barrel will be quieter suppressed than a 300 upper supersonic or subsonic ammo.
But then this could change if a not so good 9mm can is used on the 9mm upper.



I get where you are going with this but, to me, NFA items do not have a tag. I buy the best that I can buy. IMO budget NFA items don't make sense since the $200 stamp itself is costly; why save the extra $150-$200 instead of buying top of the line? Although I am still undecided on a can, I will likely be set back $1,100-$1,200 on the stamp and can.

I have had several 300 whisper uppers over the past 20 years and now 300 blackout builds and
none of them exept the integral suppressed have been quieter than any 9mm builds I have.
The 300 may seem quieter at the ear but stand 20 feet away and you will know the 9mm is quieter.
Then if money is not a matter then go with the SRT integral 9mm upper or the Liberty 300 integral upper as
both are quieter than any muzzle can at this time.
I know for a fact that this 9mm is quieter than any of my 300's
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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Emilio wrote:
But in your vid you say, "about the same,,,sorta". :mrgreen:

No way is my 9mm carbines (2) are as quiet as my pistols and I think the gas port at the right ear makes more noise.

My 300 BLK with 308 can and 220 subs has a nice sound (like my pistols) this may be because DI gas to bolt. Maybe it the lower tone and on edge of under gassed for subs.

Both plenty quiet and happy to have both.

To the OP, if just a range toy get the 9mm cheaper to shoot both suppressed and not. 300 BLK can have just as many issues as 9mm if not set up right. (9mm actually slightly easier, no gas port to deal with timing)

Tune your 9mm so the bolt only comes back far enough to hold the bolt back and the buffer wont slam in the tube , heavy buffer and a extra power buffer spring helps keep the bolt closed longer too so you get less port noise and no double recoil
from the buffer bouncing off your shoulder.
The bolt noise will change from a clack to a clunk too if you get rid of the sliding weights in the buffer and replace them with
tungsten powder + you can tune with the amount of powder used.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:12 pm 
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redtazdog wrote:
Tune your 9mm so the bolt only comes back far enough to hold the bolt back and the buffer wont slam in the tube , heavy buffer and a extra power buffer spring helps keep the bolt closed longer too so you get less port noise and no double recoil
from the buffer bouncing off your shoulder.
The bolt noise will change from a clack to a clunk too if you get rid of the sliding weights in the buffer and replace them with
tungsten powder + you can tune with the amount of powder used.

I've got a 9.8 oz solid steel (except the rubber bumper) rifle buffer that I keep meaning to try in it as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:43 pm 
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redtazdog wrote:
Tune your 9mm so the bolt only comes back far enough to hold the bolt back and the buffer wont slam in the tube , heavy buffer and a extra power buffer spring helps keep the bolt closed longer too so you get less port noise and no double recoil
from the buffer bouncing off your shoulder.
The bolt noise will change from a clack to a clunk too if you get rid of the sliding weights in the buffer and replace them with
tungsten powder + you can tune with the amount of powder used.


I made a spacer so the bolt just lock back and have a powder H2 buffer in it, the spring is good and stiffer with the spacer, I always watch my brass and admit I can go stiffer and heavier but am working up to it while working down my loads. 3.6gr W231 116-120 OAL.

Still my 300BLK is very quiet indoors with 220 gr subs and brass reliable falling at my feet.

I see you have a DD lower too. :D

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:37 am 
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Garrett wrote:
redtazdog wrote:
Tune your 9mm so the bolt only comes back far enough to hold the bolt back and the buffer wont slam in the tube , heavy buffer and a extra power buffer spring helps keep the bolt closed longer too so you get less port noise and no double recoil
from the buffer bouncing off your shoulder.
The bolt noise will change from a clack to a clunk too if you get rid of the sliding weights in the buffer and replace them with
tungsten powder + you can tune with the amount of powder used.

I've got a 9.8 oz solid steel (except the rubber bumper) rifle buffer that I keep meaning to try in it as well.

I made a buffer out of solid steel and tried it before I bored it out to fill with tungsten, the solid buffers makes more noise
when it slams home, at least mine did.
The powder acts like a dead blow hammer and buffers out some of the noise when the bolt
slams the barrel.
To make it even more quiet I made a stainless insert for the back of the bolt that has tungsten powder instead of the solid insert they come with.
Image
Image
Image
Image
.
every little thing you do to quiet down the action noise adds up and makes the whole package quieter.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:06 am 
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I am really enjoying where this thread is going and the info that is being shared.....quite frankly, I haven't put thought into slowing (more like timing) the action via buffer tube innards....I am very new to the 9mm builds....I'm liking the RRA LAR-9 though.

Well keep the convo going on reduction tips.....any links to products is great.


Were the powder filled buffers something you made or purchased? I suppose I would be game for either but I do like the idea of this since I know the action on my DDM4V5 is loud in and of itself (although I mean the action and not the chambering, of course, and I would assume the action will still be loud...thus, these little tid-bits are awesome).


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:56 am 
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Whitebrad25 wrote:
I am really enjoying where this thread is going and the info that is being shared.....quite frankly, I haven't put thought into slowing (more like timing) the action via buffer tube innards....I am very new to the 9mm builds....I'm liking the RRA LAR-9 though.

Well keep the convo going on reduction tips.....any links to products is great.


Were the powder filled buffers something you made or purchased? I suppose I would be game for either but I do like the idea of this since I know the action on my DDM4V5 is loud in and of itself (although I mean the action and not the chambering, of course, and I would assume the action will still be loud...thus, these little tid-bits are awesome).

I made some of my own custom buffers many years ago and now there is others making and selling them http://heavybuffers.com/
I like the cmmg over the RRA, cmmg ramps the 9mm bolt so a standard hammer or a trigger kit can be used and
the ramped bolt cycles smoother too. http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/category/9mm-Firearms-99


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:48 pm 
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redtazdog wrote:
Whitebrad25 wrote:
I am really enjoying where this thread is going and the info that is being shared.....quite frankly, I haven't put thought into slowing (more like timing) the action via buffer tube innards....I am very new to the 9mm builds....I'm liking the RRA LAR-9 though.

Well keep the convo going on reduction tips.....any links to products is great.


Were the powder filled buffers something you made or purchased? I suppose I would be game for either but I do like the idea of this since I know the action on my DDM4V5 is loud in and of itself (although I mean the action and not the chambering, of course, and I would assume the action will still be loud...thus, these little tid-bits are awesome).

I made some of my own custom buffers many years ago and now there is others making and selling them http://heavybuffers.com/
I like the cmmg over the RRA, cmmg ramps the 9mm bolt so a standard hammer or a trigger kit can be used and
the ramped bolt cycles smoother too. http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/category/9mm-Firearms-99




Interesting...I do not have great history with CMMG. Before I bought my Daniel Defense I rented a few different ARs at the range (because I didn't have money and I wanted to show my GF that they are fun to shoot, she agrees :D ) and everytime I shot the CMMG it had malfunctions of various types....Once the guy even mentioned that it was just cleaned and we still experienced several issues.


Now, I know magazines, age, proper maintanence possibly, etc. are factors...but that kind of experience soured me on that brand. If they are really better then fine by me. If it uses the regular hammer and trigger kit, I assume one would be able to drop in a timney 4lb trigger?


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Whitebrad25 wrote:
redtazdog wrote:
Whitebrad25 wrote:
I am really enjoying where this thread is going and the info that is being shared.....quite frankly, I haven't put thought into slowing (more like timing) the action via buffer tube innards....I am very new to the 9mm builds....I'm liking the RRA LAR-9 though.

Well keep the convo going on reduction tips.....any links to products is great.


Were the powder filled buffers something you made or purchased? I suppose I would be game for either but I do like the idea of this since I know the action on my DDM4V5 is loud in and of itself (although I mean the action and not the chambering, of course, and I would assume the action will still be loud...thus, these little tid-bits are awesome).

I made some of my own custom buffers many years ago and now there is others making and selling them http://heavybuffers.com/
I like the cmmg over the RRA, cmmg ramps the 9mm bolt so a standard hammer or a trigger kit can be used and
the ramped bolt cycles smoother too. http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/category/9mm-Firearms-99




Interesting...I do not have great history with CMMG. Before I bought my Daniel Defense I rented a few different ARs at the range (because I didn't have money and I wanted to show my GF that they are fun to shoot, she agrees :D ) and everytime I shot the CMMG it had malfunctions of various types....Once the guy even mentioned that it was just cleaned and we still experienced several issues.


Now, I know magazines, age, proper maintanence possibly, etc. are factors...but that kind of experience soured me on that brand. If they are really better then fine by me. If it uses the regular hammer and trigger kit, I assume one would be able to drop in a timney 4lb trigger?

I dont use the timney triggers but I have seen a few 9mm builds that had them and they worked.
AR 9mm guns can be picky with mags, like some of them dont like the CProducts mags but most all of them like colt/metalform made mags.
Some of the mag blocks that fit in a 223 lower need to be fine tuned or the gun wont run worth the shit.
The newer dedicated 9mm lowers are nice as they have them machined so the mag is in the perfect spot now
so no fine tuning of a block is needed.
CMMG has realy good customer service so if you did have a problem they want to fix it instead of avoiding you like some companys.
You could just get a complete upper then get a DDLES lower thas uses colt/metalform mags or Glock mags.
http://www.shop.doublediamondsupply.com/AR-15_c3.htm


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:26 pm 
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I love the Blackout but the 9mm is more quiet, lighter, shorter, and way cheeper to shoot.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:13 am 
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I have been reading more on the 9mm and its options.....at the moment, I think a 9mm will be what I go with...except I will probably get an AAC TiRant 45 for it. The .45 caliber suppressor won't be as quiet right now, which I know is ironic since my main goal is suppression but I know the .45 can will be a two for one right now. The circular design should lend itself better to modular style handguards (what I feel I will likely run as of now).


So....I was looking at DI 9mm (not out yet but a popular company is making one with a status as "coming soon"....Is DI worth it over the standard blowback designs? I know this might seem apples to oranges in that there aren't (or that I know of) any DI 9mm right now but I hear the argument made for .45 DI because it is "more smooth shooting."


If I go for the DDLES lower (which I am looking at pretty strongly) is the VLTOR machined lower worth the extra money? I can't find a VLTOR Upper for sale anywhere.....so I am also curious as to cost of this since the one I found was out of stock and also a stripped upper...


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Whitebrad25 wrote:
I have been reading more on the 9mm and its options.....at the moment, I think a 9mm will be what I go with...except I will probably get an AAC TiRant 45 for it. The .45 caliber suppressor won't be as quiet right now, which I know is ironic since my main goal is suppression but I know the .45 can will be a two for one right now. The circular design should lend itself better to modular style handguards (what I feel I will likely run as of now).


So....I was looking at DI 9mm (not out yet but a popular company is making one with a status as "coming soon"....Is DI worth it over the standard blowback designs? I know this might seem apples to oranges in that there aren't (or that I know of) any DI 9mm right now but I hear the argument made for .45 DI because it is "more smooth shooting."


If I go for the DDLES lower (which I am looking at pretty strongly) is the VLTOR machined lower worth the extra money? I can't find a VLTOR Upper for sale anywhere.....so I am also curious as to cost of this since the one I found was out of stock and also a stripped upper...


As of "today", the DI 9mm upper will be very ammo picky!

DD VLTOR lower not "worth" the extra, it just about looks for using VLTOR uppers (also cost more for looks). You can use a DD VLTOR lower on any 9mm upper. The RRA/Spikes upper is smoother on the port side but has traditional Colt cut dust cover . You can build your own upper if you cant find what you like, one place for parts (like CMMG bolt) is http://www.9mmar.com/

Think about easy to clean 9mm cans when you do buy one.

I don't believe 9mm AR is much lighter, it depends on how you set up either AR, they make LW 300BLK barrels, 9mm bolts and buffers are heavy and the steel mags are very heavy and harder to load.

I would get a 1-10 twist 9mm barrel.

9mm's are fun!

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Here is my build list...PLEASE CRITIQUE!

Starting with the lower.

-I am thinking about the DDLES (thanks for the link!) as a completed pistol. As I understand it drops in standard triggers so at some point that will be updated. Cost-$485.95 (includes complete pistol and engraving)
http://www.shop.doublediamondsupply.com ... DDAR9L.htm

I am going to have it as a pistol until the form 1 clears.

-Spikes tactical ST-T2 buffer with ST-9BS buffer spacer (comes as combo for $45) (I don't know much about this part, I took it from another persons similar build) I want absolute reliability though!

-Eventually Magpul STR stock

Upper
The actual upper is still undecided....I really want good reliability.

-ADCO 5"-5.5" barrel, threaded 1/2x28 $160 (haven't thought about the exact length of the barrel yet but 7-8 is also considered)
-Spikes Tactical 7" BAR rail w/ spikes FDE rail covers $172 (Also took from another build, not sure of the options out there)
-Spikes Tactical BCG ($200?, couldn't find anymore on website) (Also took this from another build, I am open to 'internals' suggestions)
-BCM Gunfighter Charging handle MOD 4 $35
-AAC Tirant 9mm silencer $800+$200 tax stamp
-AAC announced that they were going to come out with a 3 lug design and I think I will go this route over quick detach so I am not positive of the cost for this yet.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Hmmmm,

Buy the lower stripped. ( save huge )

Complete Lower parts kit $49 with moe grip from PSA (today deal free shipping) Hand gurds too.

Heavier buffer. ( 9 mm buffer is longer)

Why get rails everywhere if covering them? :mrgreen:

Octane 9 suppressor. Cheaper, stronger, easiest 9 can to clean.

9mm pistol barrels are the easiest to find.

Hard to screw up a blowback 9mm most will be reliable anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Thanks for the tips.


With the 9mm can vs. the TiRant 45, I want the 45 so I can shoot it with the FNX 45 Tactical I will get when they release them.



As far as the buffer goes, what would you suggest?

And as for the Lower parts kits, I do not have any AR tools and that would add to the cost of the build in a way I do not care to venture right now...so I might be better off buying the completed pistol. Plus, I would then need to buy a buffer tube and stake it, etc...and, once again, no tools.


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 Post subject: Re: 9mm vs 300 Blackout/Whisper Suppressed....bear with me.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:38 pm
Posts: 2273
I forget kns trigger pins. :D

No special tools needed for lower but ok.

45 can should still sound fine. :D

Buffer? They all want Too much for what they are, go by weight. H2 is still light but works fine.

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