Muzzle flash tests -- including SRT Typhoon, ...

General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.

All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, mr fixit, bakerjw, renegade

Post Reply

What is your prediction?

I suspect the test is correct. Robert posted his methods and evidence.
120
81%
"Muzzle flash? All reports and observations show a little tiny blue cone of flame comes out the front of the can." - Doug, SRT ARMS"
29
19%
 
Total votes: 149

User avatar
Kevin/AAC
Elite Industry Professional
Posts: 3248
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:47 pm
Location: Atlanta
Contact:

Post by Kevin/AAC »

AZDoug wrote:My final comment on this, is that the fireball that RS shows in his photo is from an unburned powder flare.

How do you get an unburned powder flare?

basically, four ways:

Pour some unburned powder in the can prior to shooting it.

Take a can that had been fired a lot and bang it around, knocking some of the carbon loose, you will then get anywhere from 2-3 to 10 or more flame thrower shots as more carbon is blasted loose and burned with each shot.


Manually scrape the carbon buildup inside of the can to give the gases a foothold to get under the carbon scale, same result as above.

Run 2-3 full auto mags thru a cold can, then let it sit for a minute or so, then fire another round, doesn't always work, but it can. Barrel length plays a factor here

the above will gerenate a fireball from any manufacturers can.

The Atlas mount has similar muzzle flash to a thread mount version, and less flash on a longer barerl than a shorter barrel.

And I am outta here, i have better things to do with my time than hang out here.

Doug

This statement is completely untrue.

I received the can new. I opened the package and was the first person to fire it. The can was uncertainly unfired, because you had opened up the I.D. of the mount and it was bare metal. The very first round fired had the same flash as every round since. No one has sabotaged you, except for yourself. We would have never posted the test, but you publicly stated that the can had nearly no muzzle flash and no blow back. That is simply untrue, very obvious, and was easy to disprove.

I do not believe that you are intentionally misleading people...I think that you have never tested this can for flash or back pressure and you were simply repeating what you had heard from another source.
Sid Post
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:51 am
Location: Arizona, USA

Post by Sid Post »

IF I go to the Altanta BLADE SHOW this year, I'll donate on of my evenings to some range witness time. This would be in June though so, I'm not sure it has much value since the Silencer Shoot is so close to the same time.
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

If needed, a few people can hang out late at the silencer shoot until dark. But I am confident this will be settled before then.
User avatar
PCArms
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm
Location: NW Oregon
Contact:

Post by PCArms »

Kevin/AAC wrote:Try the Typhoon with the ATLAS mount and post the results. I can bring mine to the Silencer Shoot.
rsilvers wrote:If you want AAC can send you the SRT can on Monday. Do you want it?

The conditions are that you repair the finish, and do not keep it for more than 7 days, and test it on a 10 inch barrel. AAC will also send an M4-2000 flash suppressor so you can mount that guys M4-2000 on the same rifle.
Sure, I would love the re-finish your SRT can and return it to you,
and would like to evaluate your M4-2000 mount.

You already have my FFL/SOT on file.


As for the camera comment, we are working on refining the process to closely match Roberts picture,
but as far as I am concerned, option's are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
If you don't capture the 1st round separately,
and use a NIKON camera, and LVIEW editing S/W
and use a COLT M-16 or HK53
then the tests mean nothing to me.

Thanks for offering to send my the actual SRT can, mount, and same ammo. I will do a fair and as un-bias testing as I possibly can.
Pat
www.ORL-LLC.com
OregonResearchLabs, LLC
User avatar
Hootiewho
Super Dunce
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:02 pm

Post by Hootiewho »

Just curious, seeing how flash at night will be noticed most with a NOD, why not use one mounted to a camera to see the flash. Also, as someone said previously, set up across a given area from the firearm being tested and have the pictures made. Not saying to do this with a person, but set a camera up that can be remotely worked. In a situation where the flash is going to get you killed, its how its seen from down range that will probably be most important. I'm sure you guys (AAC) have some sort of Gen III NOD, get a camera adaptor and try some pictures with that. Would look cool at least. I have a PVS 14 and will be at the silencertests shoot if y'all would like to try and get some pictures after dark. I have done a good bit of shooting at night with my M4-2000 on 11.5, 12.5 and 16.1 inch barrels with the PVS 14, and trust me you can tell a huge difference in flash with the night vision. I do not shoot centerfires while using the 14, without a suppressor. With the NOD, you can even see the plastic tip of a ballistic tip bullet glow like a tracer. Just figured it might help make the case either way.
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

Please try to repair the flash problem. SRT claims it does not exist, so there is no sense in having them do it.
User avatar
PCArms
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm
Location: NW Oregon
Contact:

Post by PCArms »

rsilvers wrote:Please try to repair the flash problem. SRT claims it does not exist, so there is no sense in having them do it.
I will TEST AS RECEIVED, and then look into the problem and report my finding.

In case anyone is interested,
NO, I do not work for AZDoug, infact, I have only met the man 3-4 times.
But I do own and sell MANY of his products because of his Price vs. Performance & Customer Service.
I weigh the latter very heavily.
Pat
www.ORL-LLC.com
OregonResearchLabs, LLC
Buck_Naked
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:57 am

Post by Buck_Naked »

I was there shooting with Pat last night, thats me in the green jacket firing the Micro Galil as well as the Saiga... :D

I brought my own PVS-14 to the shoot last night, and watched most of the testing through it. Out of all the combinations fired last night, I saw nothing even remotely close to the picture rsilvers posted. I realize what the human eye sees and what a camera or NOD can see can be quite different from one another, but there is an incredibly wide gap here...

One photo I would like to see would be a photo of the 416 being fired without any flash suppresion at all, just to have a base level to start off with regards to the rest of the comparisons.

This was the first time I had ever even met Pat, so I have no reason to have a bias in regards to the results. I have nothing to do with SRT, I don't own there product or even a suppressor for that matter. The main reason for me coming out was I had a stash of TAP ammo and thought it would be fun to watch the testing.... and I had a blast! Thanks Pat!

Dave
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

Several of the people there have said this -- but realize that you have not yet shot an SRT ATLAS. Next time you test, do the following:

1. 10 inch with M855 and no muzzle device.
2. 10 inch with A2 flash suppressor, M855.
3. 10 inch with AAC BLACKOUT flash suppressor and M855
4. 10 inch with AAC M4-2000.
5. 10 inch with SRT ATLAS.
Buck_Naked
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:57 am

Post by Buck_Naked »

rsilvers wrote:Several of the people there have said this -- but realize that you have not yet shot an SRT ATLAS. Next time you test, do the following:

1. 10 inch with M855 and no muzzle device.
2. 10 inch with A2 flash suppressor, M855.
3. 10 inch with AAC BLACKOUT flash suppressor and M855
4. 10 inch with AAC M4-2000.
5. 10 inch with SRT ATLAS.
I hope to be there should Pat receive the Atlas. I wish I had a digital body with the option for ISO 1000 for a direct comparison, but with the added length of Pats exposure it more than makes up for the lower ISO setting, and really shouldn't have any bearing.

Do you have a 10 inch DI upper to run the same test? Throw in a Vortex for good measure... I have one I can contribute to the test...
Last edited by Buck_Naked on Sat May 19, 2007 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NoAim
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:56 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Post by NoAim »

I'll also chime in. I'm the disembodied hands on the 10" AR in the latest set of pictures.

As far as whether it has a 2" or 3" jet of flame, I could care less at this moment.

The end result is that there was ZERO through any of these tests from a .308 can, XXX .223, M4-2000, SRT Typhoon, TAC-16 etc. etc. that came close to a 2-3 foot flame. This is with every type of ammo on hand, every barrel length from 8" to 16". Switching cans around (where applicable) produced very minor changes (say a 1-2" difference in successive shots).

All the talk about photography settings and ISO's is details that are mostly irrelevant to the primary purpose of this discussion. It's almost sounding a bit elitist as, "you can't properly test because you haven't spent the extra $2000 in gear for it".

The main point is that there is A HUGE difference between pictures. As shown by rsilvers, the flash would be blinding at night and certainly visible to the shooter during the day. Are we not talking about what people see? Who gives a rip about how dark the background is. Minor details...let's focus on the big picture (pun intended).

From the past performance of these cans, I'd venture to say that either the previous test is not representative of actual performance or the can was defective/damaged.
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

I will say this for a fourth time.

You guys have never tested an SRT ATLAS, so you do not know how it should perform.

Yes the eye matters more, but the photos are used so one can document the results and show people. I trust my photos more than someone else's eyes.

It is hardly elitist to say one needs reasonable equipment to do a scientific test. ISO 1000 is nothing special. In fact, it downright sucks -- but ISO400 is worse than sucky. I use ISO 3200 in my own R&D tests. Can any of you bring someone with at least an EOS Rebel?
User avatar
PCArms
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm
Location: NW Oregon
Contact:

Post by PCArms »

rsilvers wrote:Several of the people there have said this -- but realize that you have not yet shot an SRT ATLAS. Next time you test, do the following:

1. 10 inch with M855 and no muzzle device.
2. 10 inch with A2 flash suppressor, M855.
3. 10 inch with AAC BLACKOUT flash suppressor and M855
4. 10 inch with AAC M4-2000.
5. 10 inch with SRT ATLAS.
Agreed, and I will work on my Night Shots while waiting for your SRT CAN.
That is obviously the missing link in all this. Either that can or the mount.

And I will invite Buck_Naked back again,
hope the NFA GRIN whore off so you could get some sleep last night :D

Now I really have to get back to my paperwork!
Pat
www.ORL-LLC.com
OregonResearchLabs, LLC
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

Oh, and also retest your thread mount Typhoon in the same run.

One thing to work on -- get the camera closer. Take some tonight without any muzzle device and get the distance so that the flash is all within the frame without too much extra room. Then use that distance for all the shots.
User avatar
Tyris
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2337
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Tyris »

rsilvers wrote: But in order to show that, you need the same model M4-2000 and SRT. You certainly are not using the same model SRT, and you might not be using the same generation of M4-2000 (what year is the one you used? Ours was a late model 2006).
Sorry for getting to this party late. I sleep in till noon on Saturdays :P

Mine is a late model 2006, I took delivery in 2007.

Edit: I cant wait to see the SRT Flash-Enhanced Typhoon when it gets to Pat.

-T
Last edited by Tyris on Sat May 19, 2007 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buck_Naked
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:57 am

Post by Buck_Naked »

rsilvers wrote:I will say this for a fourth time.

You guys have never tested an SRT ATLAS, so you do not know how it should perform.

Yes the eye matters more, but the photos are used so one can document the results and show people. I trust my photos more than someone else's eyes.

It is hardly elitist to say one needs reasonable equipment to do a scientific test. ISO 1000 is nothing special. In fact, it downright sucks -- but ISO400 is worse than sucky. I use ISO 3200 in my own R&D tests. Can any of you bring someone with at least an EOS Rebel?
rsilvers,
Can you give the specifics on what camera and lens length you are using? If I can find something like a D80 or D100/200, I have several lens I can use... my current bodies are all still film based...
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

A D80, D100, or D200 would be excellent.

Any lens which is F3.5 or faster (smaller number) could match my test. Whoever has one of those cameras would be extremely likely to have a lens which works. Just tell me what you end up borrowing and I will tell you settings to use.
Buck_Naked
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:57 am

Post by Buck_Naked »

rsilvers wrote:A D80, D100, or D200 would be excellent.

Any lens which is F3.5 or faster (smaller number) could match my test. Whoever has one of those cameras would be extremely likely to have a lens which works. Just tell me what you end up borrowing and I will tell you settings to use.
I have Nikon 24mm f2.8, 35-70mm f2.8, 105mm f2.8 Macro among others... I would guess the 35-70 would be probably be best. I will do my best to see what I can do for a body...
User avatar
chevrofreak
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:44 am
Location: Montana

Post by chevrofreak »

How much of a difference will a piston upper vs a non-piston upper make for flash? I would think that the piston upper would allow less of the gas to blow back through the rifle creating a potential for more flash.
User avatar
PCArms
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm
Location: NW Oregon
Contact:

Post by PCArms »

chevrofreak wrote:How much of a difference will a piston upper vs a non-piston upper make for flash? I would think that the piston upper would allow less of the gas to blow back through the rifle creating a potential for more flash.
I thought it might as well, but didn't see that last night with the POF.
Tyris wrote:
rsilvers wrote: But in order to show that, you need the same model M4-2000 and SRT. You certainly are not using the same model SRT, and you might not be using the same generation of M4-2000 (what year is the one you used? Ours was a late model 2006).
Sorry for getting to this party late. I sleep in till noon on Saturdays :P

Mine is a late model 2006, I took delivery in 2007.

Edit: I cant wait to see the SRT Flash-Enhanced Typhoon when it gets to Pat.

-T
WAIT, You are the one that had to BEG me to order from AAC????

Again, I was very impressed with the M4-2000, but really want to see what is going on here.
Pat
www.ORL-LLC.com
OregonResearchLabs, LLC
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

Each of those three lenses are good. The 35-70 would be easiest to use.

If you want to duplicate my results, then set it to F3.5 and ISO 1000. If you want to just pick up the most flash, then use F2.8 and ISO 1600. I have no preference as long as the same setting is used for all of the shots.
User avatar
PCArms
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm
Location: NW Oregon
Contact:

Post by PCArms »

Bidding on a couple D100's , but if there is anyone who finds one reasonable, let me know.

Here is a WartHog we cought last night.

Image
Pat
www.ORL-LLC.com
OregonResearchLabs, LLC
User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33978
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:31 am
Location: USA

Post by silencertalk »

Juts buy a new Canon Rebel XTi 10 MP for $700 with the lens. I gave a link earlier in the thread. It is a huge value and WAY better than the $5000+ Nikon I bought 8 years ago.
User avatar
PCArms
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 pm
Location: NW Oregon
Contact:

Post by PCArms »

8)

That's like telling me to buy a Camero or a Mustang instead of a HEMI Cuda,
just ain't going to happen.

Found a D100, it should be here by Thursday.
Pat
www.ORL-LLC.com
OregonResearchLabs, LLC
User avatar
JohnnyC
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2892
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:31 am
Location: AZ

Post by JohnnyC »

rsilvers wrote:Juts buy a new Canon Rebel XTi 10 MP for $700 with the lens. I gave a link earlier in the thread. It is a huge value and WAY better than the $5000+ Nikon I bought 8 years ago.
Of course it's "WAY" better, it's a Canon. Trying to decide if I want the new one, the 1D Mark III. 10fps for 110 frames sounds nice, plus it's got the new processor.
Post Reply