Muzzle flash tests -- including SRT Typhoon, ...

[chevrofreak]

Video isn't a very good way to capture images of muzzle flash. At 30~ FPS and considering how fast the flame actually burns you will usually only see a single frame of the flash, which will only show a split second image of it instead of the entire flame as it starts and dissipates.

I made this video to compare the flash from my AK with and without a flash suppressor, and as you can see some of the shots don't show any flash at all, while others show an extreme fire ball and others just a small puff of flame.

http://files.chevrofreak.com/videos/gun ... ash_hider/

While it is true that some rounds don't flash as much as others, even from the same batch of ammo, the small sample time of a video camera can often completely miss the flash, or the peak brightness of the flash.

rsilvers use of a digital camera with a long exposure time will give a much more realistic image of the total flash than a short exposure video camera will

[PCArms]

Nice video. And Thanks, now I need to pour a cement wall.

Yea, I know my Digital Camera doing Video is not the optimum, but all I had, at the time. And seriously, we have never seen any flash like that out of ANY CAN.
But then again, we normally don't shoot HOT .223 AMMO through a 10" barrel with a can on it.

Sigh. This is so ignorant I almost should not comment.

Thanks, coming from you, that means a lot.

[Blaster7Romeo]

Holding the shutter open for 1-second and SAVING the flash from multiple shots is NOT REAL WORLD. But we will do that this weekend WITH an AAC can as well.

Now how can that NOT be real world!!

Getting shot at and shooting in the night IS real world for some people. but it is not for Mall Ninjas

[Kevin/AAC]

Nice video. And Thanks, now I need to pour a cement wall.

Yea, I know my Digital Camera doing Video is not the optimum, but all I had, at the time. And seriously, we have never seen any flash like that out of ANY CAN.
But then again, we normally don't shoot HOT .223 AMMO through a 10" barrel with a can on it.

Sigh. This is so ignorant I almost should not comment.

Thanks, coming from you, that means a lot.

Have you ever fired a Typhoon with the ATLAS mount?

[cyclone72]

THIS THREAD TOOK A NASTY TURN.

If you want a SRT can, then get one.

Eitherway the friggin can has SIGNIFICANT muzzle flash for a silencer.

Im with you on that,otherwise Im stayin out of this one.

[wolf]

Eh ,,i have to make a comment on the flash hider thing
A flash hider dos not hide the flash ,,it prevents it (more or lees)
When the hot gases exit the barrel,they still contains unburned fuel
When the hot gas mixes with the oxygen in the air they ignite ,and you have the flash ,this is like back draft when you have a fire in a closed room ,hot gas no(or little) oxygen ,and when you open the door ,,big flash
Anny firefighters here chime in ;o)

Most flash hiders spreads the gas into so much air that most of it is cooled and wont ignite
In a can there is some air, and as we know from 22 long riffle cans if you have fuel air mix burning /exploding inside the can ,you will hear a fist round pop ,this also happens in a 223 can but you can not tell it apart from the bullet crack
So if you can burn some gas inside the can it wil not be there when it gets out
also if you can cool some of the gas down it will also help reduce the flash
also if the gas is not spread out when it exits the can it will more likely mix whit the air ,and ignite

And for the 3 round burst ,the military has 3round burst so that makes sense
And for the one sec opening time ,,i want to see all of it
The best way would be ,total dark room ,open shutter fire 3 round burst close shutter
That is what a night vision would see
And if you can see it in daylight ,you for sure are going to se it in the dark
(unless you have a habit to close you eyes when you pull the trigger)

[USMC_2674]

From the standpoint of the end-user, these tests are great.

While I don't know anybody who uses 3-shot burst outside of boot-camp (why be limited to 3 shots, when you can control a string of 1-6 shots with a single pull of the trigger... if you can't do that, practice more), the application is good because we are pouring rounds down-range.

Robert, for me it would be interesting to see the tests of the same ammo, same guns, same barrel, with semi and 3 shot burst testing, as well as a nice 12-15 round burst from a 249. While we did numerous tests to see what our signature was at night (by standing opposite a friend shooting a target a few meters to the side of us), we didn't do anything this official.

I would estimate that 70-80% of real-world operations occur in the dark in the counter narcotic's world, and a similiar amount in the terrorism world. But, these are the operations you don't hear about, so I am sure I don't know what I'm talking about.

These are the kinds of tests that NEED to be made public...

I am not a AAC Kool-aid drinker, but I do own a few of their cans.

Semper Fidelis,

Kent

[cowboy7242001]

A bit more on topic, the new Blackout flash suppressor looks AWESOME.

[PCArms]

O.K. Guys, I liked WOLF 'S idea
so with a customers help, we ran a QUICK, test, closer, to what Mr. Silvers started.

THIS IS ONLY A TEST

My camera will only go up to ISO 400, so that will just have to do,
but rather than 1 second, we did 8 seconds,
and 10 rounds, 5 of Blackhills, and 5 of American Eagle.
We will pickup some other before testing the AAC can.
Also, my 10" upper started acting up, so I had to switch to the 14" M4 upper.
Again, on a Standard COLT M16, in full auto, not burst.




PRE-TEST With FLASH


Triple-x can


SRT Typhoon (Thread Mount)


Tac-16
Interesting NOTE from shooter, on the TAC-16, we heard the 1st rnd POP, and a FLASH and that can be seen in the picture.

I want to THANK everyone in this thread, including Robert & Keven.
I know things started to get a bit heated, but sometimes that is what it takes to MAKE ME learn.

[silencertalk]

What aperture did you use? That is just as important as ISO.

Make sure you focus and then switch to manual focus.

Also see if you can get some NATO spec ammo. SAAMI ammo is not full power.

[Tyris]

Pats findings are inline with what I recall from our dusk shoots.

-T

[Sid Post]

Ammunition differences are at play here.

I quit shooting White Box Winchester 9mm because it has a huge fireball out of my Glock 17. During full sunshine in the summer, I could easily see a fireball the size of basketball. American Eagle had significantly less flash.

Testing the sound signature of a suppressor with different ammunition, diferent sound meters, in different parts of the country, etc. would cause people to question the sound reduction comparison. How is this flash comparison significantly different? Different rifles (Colt DI vs. HK piston), cameras and, ammunition make it hard to objectively compare the two sets of pictures of flash.

The suppressor shoot is coming up. How hard would it be to shoot these cans in front of a crowd with the same ammunition and same camera to provide a common point of reference for flash?

[PCArms]

Ooops, was getting late and missed posting that

f3.2, (My camera only does 2.8, 3.2, 3.6-8.0)
I will do some testing next at 2.8 and a piece of Dry-Wall as a backdrop.

And yea, will dig up some HI-POWER ammo, and just load 3-shots in the mag to duplicate you 3-rnd burst.

I don't want this to get into a "Well My Can is 1.3726dB quieter than your can" pissing match. I was just SHOCKED to see your results because I had never tested with LONG EXPOSER.

Still Friends? I have leared a lot from this site, and I respect your dedication to the cause, just find some of your results scewed at times?

I'll post a link to the original pics if you want to enhance the contract to lighten them up a bit. Didn't want to dr. them up myself.

[silencertalk]

3.2 is close enough. ISO 400 to 1000 is about 2.5 times less sensitive. Between that and the weaker ammo, it could explain the difference.

[cyclone72]

Ammunition differences are at play here.

I quit shooting White Box Winchester 9mm because it has a huge fireball out of my Glock 17. During full sunshine in the summer, I could easily see a fireball the size of basketball. American Eagle had significantly less flash.

Testing the sound signature of a suppressor with different ammunition, diferent sound meters, in different parts of the country, etc. would cause people to question the sound reduction comparison. How is this flash comparison significantly different? Different rifles (Colt DI vs. HK piston), cameras and, ammunition make it hard to objectively compare the two sets of pictures of flash.

The suppressor shoot is coming up. How hard would it be to shoot these cans in front of a crowd with the same ammunition and same camera to provide a common point of reference for flash?

this I do know military/Nato/SS109 ammo has an additive in the powder to reduce flash.

[PCArms]

Ammunition differences are at play here.

I quit shooting White Box Winchester 9mm because it has a huge fireball out of my Glock 17. During full sunshine in the summer, I could easily see a fireball the size of basketball. American Eagle had significantly less flash.

Testing the sound signature of a suppressor with different ammunition, diferent sound meters, in different parts of the country, etc. would cause people to question the sound reduction comparison. How is this flash comparison significantly different? Different rifles (Colt DI vs. HK piston), cameras and, ammunition make it hard to objectively compare the two sets of pictures of flash.

The suppressor shoot is coming up. How hard would it be to shoot these cans in front of a crowd with the same ammunition and same camera to provide a common point of reference for flash?

this I do know military/Nato/SS109 ammo has an additive in the powder to reduce flash.

O.K. now you guys are just FU@KING with me!
I thought someone else posted that the military was HOTTER,
and that the civilian stuff I used might have the flash reducer?

And by the way, my original results of worst-case flash from my digital video in daylight look damn close to the 8 second exposure, 10 round full auto burst at night.






And here is a link for those who might want to download the original pics
http://orl-llc.com/nfa-pics/SRT-M16/index.htm

[kalikraven]

There is a posistive in all this. During the assault rifle ban years I wanted a suppresor but ATF categorized them as a flash suppressor and IT would add to the evil feature list. Well if you got one of those cans I guess it would be hard to called it a flash suppressor.

[Kevin/AAC]

14" barrels have about 50% less flash than 10" barrels.

[chrismartin]

Ammo difference in pictures...

I was reading m4carbine.net and gotm4 posted this

Guat mil surplus ammo:


American Eagle 223 55gr:


I have no idea about the camera settings, but it does show the difference ammo can make.

ETA: GotM4 is also using a DNC comp as this is a 3-gun match gun. So the compensator/brake will increase the flash a bit rather than reducing it. I am just posting the pictures as an example of flash from two different types of ammo from the same gun.

[Kevin/AAC]

That is a great post. Most people are unaware that simple changes can/do yield extraordinarily different results. Most people would call B.S. on those pictures, but this is the kind of stuff that we test and witness constantly.

Thanks again.

[Mongo]

Another factor might be the type of mount. A mount that uses the existing flash hider like the Atlas, HALO, OMNI really does not have an adequate sealing surface for the suppressor. The various manufacturese accomplish this to some extent with their designs but there will be some leakage. So will the leakage effect the flash? I'm not sure but it could be a factor.

[PCArms]

That is what I like to see, Great pics!

I have some Guat, will throw that into the mix as well once I find an AAC M4-2000 to include in our testing.

[Kevin/AAC]

Have you found a Typhoon/Atlas mount to test, yet?

[PCArms]

Have you found a Typhoon/Atlas mount to test, yet?

No, the AAC can will be a thread mount, as will all the other cans tested by us.

I would LOVE to see a THIRD group do testing as well, and WITH the QD mount for correlation. Not interested in doing Apples vs Oranges testing.

[Kevin/AAC]

Have you found a Typhoon/Atlas mount to test, yet?

No, the AAC can will be a thread mount, as will all the other cans tested by us.

I would LOVE to see a THIRD group do testing as well, and WITH the QD mount for correlation. Not interested in doing Apples vs Oranges testing.

It kind of seems like we have been talking apples and oranges the entire time...different silencers, ammo, barrel lengths, gas systems, environments, lighting, cameras, settings, etc.