Check out this idiot.

millo2115 · Post by **millo2115** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:14 pm

http://s717.photobucket.com/albums/ww17 ... I_1778.flv

Apparently this is a class at Tactical Response.

renegade · Post by **renegade** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:21 pm

There are more than one. But I know which one you mean.

FMJs-of-Freedom · Post by **FMJs-of-Freedom** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:25 pm

Wow. That's a good application for the cameras time delay feature, but to each his own. FMJs-of-Freedom

M16MANIAC · Post by **M16MANIAC** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:54 pm

Not to smart

THE DOCTOR · Post by **THE DOCTOR** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:08 pm

Nothing could go wrong there

Omega_556 · Post by **Omega_556** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:11 pm

Would there be any liability on the shooter if they shot the photographer?

Selectedmarksman · Post by **Selectedmarksman** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:56 pm

WHAT... THE... Every single person on that line should be made to pay for allowing that to happen. I don't care if I was the furthest person from that camera man there's ho fucking way I'd participate in that activity. Every shooter is an RSO, they all failed... big time.

Twinsen · Post by **Twinsen** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:10 pm

Omega_556 wrote:Would there be any liability on the shooter if they shot the photographer?

Yes. There's no form or contract out there to cover that.

Nobody at this line thought that was a bad idea?! You have to be kidding.

SturmGrenadier · Post by **SturmGrenadier** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:10 pm

Jeezus

doubloon · Post by **doubloon** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:36 pm

holy head shot batman!

wonder how many cameramen they go through in a year?

Selectedmarksman · Post by **Selectedmarksman** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:04 am

Can we get a confirmation on the source? Whatever facility and/or organization that hosted this 'event' needs to be black-listed.

ArevaloSOCOM · Post by **ArevaloSOCOM** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:09 am

urban assault · Post by **urban assault** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:39 am

Stupid is as stupid does.

Trained operators who do this sort of extreme s--t day in and day out is one thing, but a bunch of Joe SixPack's taking a weekend course is a whole nother ballgame.

If the folks in charge are playing fast and loose with such an obvious safety rule, I wonder what else are they cutting corners on?

I would've refused to be on that line.

-urban

tmix · Post by **tmix** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:33 am

There is only one person I would let shoot in my direction, and there had better be a damn good reason for him to be doing so.

renegade · Post by **renegade** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:25 am

Omega_556 wrote:Would there be any liability on the shooter if they shot the photographer?

Of course, they do not have to shoot. That is what I meant by "more than one". Nobody on that firing line should have fired. Just the risk of hitting him via ricochet is dangerous.

PSI · Post by **PSI** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:31 am

So, so, so much wrong. Where to start? The fact that some dumbass is down range is so glaring, I really doesn't need that much of my attention; to start. It's hard to believe that so much can be wrong in only 34 seconds of video. Let's try to go through it all as it occurs.

"Five shots into the little man." What the F--k kind of a range command is that? Let's see, you have this idiot crouching in the target line. Is he little man him? Is he talking about the vital area, as delineated by a lighter shade on the target? If so then the proper term would be "center of mass". "Five shots into the little man.", I can tell you right there, within the first 3 seconds, what kind of crappy instructor and crappy instruction this is.

"Fight"? Again, a stupid range command. An unarmed, paper, "little man" gets shot on the command to "fight". Pathetic.

What the F--k is that ninja yell s--t? There's a good plan, make sure your threat is as totally focused on you as possible, as you're drawing your gun. Hell, with any luck you'll startle him enough that, his sympathetic reflex causes him to tap your stupid ass in the head, so you don't get your gun out and pose a greater threat to the public at large. Cop, "So Misses Smith, you saw the shooting. What happened?" Mrs. Smith, " All I remember was that one guy screamed something, at the little man, and then shot him five times."

You put a cameraman down range when you're having the students (oh yeah that's right, fucking students; not Delta Operators, fucking students) transition to a knelling position, the least stable of all handgun firing positions. A position, I might add, that actually causes you to point your gun at goofy angles while you're getting down. Go ahead, get up from your desk right now, put your hand at your side like it's a gun, pull it up and point it while you're knelling. Check what all you just pointed at. Go ahead, the guy in the next cubicle won't mind.

You'll notice that the guy to the photogs's right, our left in frame, isn't shooting at the target next to the guy. He's shooting one off, or between targets. But he is shooting and those ain't blanks. The guy to the photographer's left doesn't fire a round until the photographer says "Shoot" at 21 seconds in. Then he does, low into the target immediately to the left of the guy. Those ain't blanks either. And then this guy reduces a stoppage. After a huge jerk low and left when his gun fails to fire. With the instructor giving him commands to do it. He points his gun right at the photographer as his taps and racks. And he does it with his fucking finger in the trigger guard. With the instructor walking him through it, without a single "FINGER, YOU STUPID MOTHER FUCKER!"

Nothing says stupid idiot, like an instructor having a bunch of students do a pirouette with a loaded gun pointed at their own heads. Scanning for additional threats, and checking your six are integral parts of any good training. But not that way. Not only is it not safe on the range. But, it will definitely get your ass killed by the cops responding to the gunfight.

There seems to be one instructor for 18 students. There appears to be someone behind the line, down at the far right, but he's walking towards the center, as the drill begins, not looking at the shooters, like he's just spotted a $20 gold piece on the ground. He's an ass, not an asset.

This may be the best 34 second documentary of what not to do during a firearms training class. If anyone here thinks they see anything correct in this video, send me your guns. You're too stupid to have them.

PPGMD · Post by **PPGMD** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:56 pm

PSI you're a fucking idiot speaking out of your ass.

The little man is a LE Targets logo (the people that print those targets), and they are shooting that because of range restrictions (the berm is too low to shoot center of mass).

They use the fight command, to signify that the threat has appeared, some schools use threat, military oriented schools might use the word "Contact" what word would you like him to use? Shoot? So you really want the people to build muscle memory that they shoot on the command of shoot?

Yelling stop is a good idea. When random people say what they say to the cops they will probably start with "This dude said stop, but the other dude with the knife didn't stop, so the first dude shot him." It also can help you get inside your opponents OODA loop, anything that requires your opponent to have to respond to new stimuli is a good thing.

I'm not going to deal with Jay being done range because you simply wouldn't understand the reasoning. Unless you've done it yourself you will never understand.

Now lets talk about the student to instructor ratio, there are at least three instructors on the line, the man yelling, the photographer, and another that you only briefly see.

Next the scan, you scan 360 degrees because threats can come from 360 degrees. And unless a cop is right there no cop is going to be behind you to shoot. The student you see in the video is doing what most starting students do, he goes through the motions, and doesn't really scan. But they will teach you to slowly scan the area behind you, AFTER accessing the target you just shot, and scanning the area in front of you. As far as being unsafe, how exactly is it unsafe, he isn't pointing his gun at anyone behind him. The real world is a 360 degree environment, the 180 degree is a range rule because of liability reasons, it has nothing to do with safety, as long as you follow the four safety rules is no less safe turning around with the gun in a guard position then it is to face down range.

Omega_556 · Post by **Omega_556** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:05 pm

The biggest problem I have with the scan is the position of the gun, that is called the "high Sabrina", you know like Charlie's Angles, it's total Hollywood and has no place on the square range let alone a real world scenario.

Realistically he would go to the low ready, granted that would be unsafe in the range environment so the best position for performing these scans in a training environment would be the "SUL" position. It is a very safe when you are in close proximity to a team member or non-threats and a very good position in terms of weapons retention.

mac man · Post by **mac man** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:11 pm

They all deserve a "Douche nozzle of the Month award"!

ROFuher · Post by **ROFuher** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:46 pm

Something to be said for:
1--Adding any amount of stress to training.
2--Knowing you can make the shot without hitting what you don't want to hit.

This could be done with a no shoot target, but stress would have to come from somewhere else.

As a point of thought, what if your local SWAT team never practiced entries with hot weapons? Would you want them trying to plug the ass hat using you or your child as shield, knowing they had never tried it? I sure as hell hope they would know cold their own ability to hit without hesitation, because they have trained to fire past the citizens being protected.

Twinsen · Post by **Twinsen** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:28 pm

PPGMD wrote: I'm not going to deal with Jay being done range because you simply wouldn't understand the reasoning. Unless you've done it yourself you will never understand.

Is the reasoning an unnecessary break of safety rules for a great picture? It could have been done remotely without the need to shoot at a person. When you kill a guy, you can tell his wife he took a great picture.

I didn't notice anything unsafe or stupid other than the guy being downrange.. maybe because when my jaw dropped that was all I could see.

PPGMD · Post by **PPGMD** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:38 pm

Twinsen wrote:Is the reasoning an unnecessary break of safety rules for a great picture? It could have been done remotely without the need to shoot at a person. When you kill a guy, you can tell his wife he took a great picture.

I didn't notice anything unsafe or stupid other than the guy being downrange.. maybe because when my jaw dropped that was all I could see.

Taking photographs is a bonus not the reason why he's down range. There are other reasons for training purposes but people wouldn't understand unless they've done it.

Braidon · Post by **Braidon** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:04 pm

PPGMD wrote:
Twinsen wrote:Is the reasoning an unnecessary break of safety rules for a great picture? It could have been done remotely without the need to shoot at a person. When you kill a guy, you can tell his wife he took a great picture.

I didn't notice anything unsafe or stupid other than the guy being downrange.. maybe because when my jaw dropped that was all I could see.
Taking photographs is a bonus not the reason why he's down range. There are other reasons for training purposes but people wouldn't understand unless they've done it.

Where do you find someone willing to do that?? I mean you better be paying the man really well to be sitting downrange... I will never understand I guess. Oh wait! I understand now! One time I saw a video of a ROK (Republic of Korea) Marine doing a "stress shoot", where the marine lays down and shoots at targets at a pretty good distance, then the instructor would start shooting a pistol into the dirt near the soldier's head, well one day something magic happened... a marine rolled the wrong way to get to a mag or fix a jam or something and POOF!! no more head... that sure stressed everyone else out and they really knew what it was like to shoot in a stressful environment..... remember 'magic' can always happen no matter how much you train or prepare against it and because of that you might lose your head

Omega_556 · Post by **Omega_556** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:56 pm

PPGMD wrote:Taking photographs is a bonus not the reason why he's down range. There are other reasons for training purposes but people wouldn't understand unless they've done it.

Ohh the old "if I had to explain it you wouldn't understand" argument.

At least that is somewhat better than the total wanna be mall ninja "if I told you, I'd have to kill you" argument.

Braidon · Post by **Braidon** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:40 pm

Omega_556 wrote:
PPGMD wrote:Taking photographs is a bonus not the reason why he's down range. There are other reasons for training purposes but people wouldn't understand unless they've done it.
Ohh the old "if I had to explain it you wouldn't understand" argument.

At least that is somewhat better than the total wanna be mall ninja "if I told you, I'd have to kill you" argument.

my black ops are blacker than your black ops. I wish you could know how black my ops are, bahaha