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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:57 pm 
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So I just got my first suppressor today (Liberty Pinnacle II (Ruger 10/22 with integrated suppressor)). I plan on taking it out on the weekend, but am curious...if I come into contact with a cop along the way, do I need to have a copy of my tax stamp with me to show him, or is that something they can just call in?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:04 am 
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keep a copy with you and make your and their life easier.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:50 am 
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They(cops) cant just call in and verif tha stuff tha takes time and unfortunately you are guilty until proven innocent.

In most states nfa weapons are illegal and a felony to posess, however an approved form1/4 if you defense against prosecution.

Would you carry concealed legally and not keep your permit on you? This is no different.

Your life can be made miserable really fast by not keeping your legal documents on hand.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:25 am 
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Yes... yes, and YES!!!! If I'm not being clear.... YES!!!! You absolutely NEED to have "on or about your person" the documentation that verifies you have signature approval of the tax paid transfer relative the NFA items you are out and about with.

Just in case I'm not clear about this... YOU NEED TO HAVE A COPY OF YOUR APPROVED TAX PAID DOCUMENTATION...WITH YOU when in possession of NFA identified items.

Can't stress this enough. Possession of identified NFA items is ILLEGAL in the context of every State in the Union's, legal code. Your possession of appropriate documentation is, in general, your documented "affirmative defense", that is buried in each states legal code.

As a NFA friendly LEO, Please.. PLEASE... have a copy of your NFA transfer documentation available when you are out and about with that item.

Any questions?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:23 am 
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Well, that seems pretty straight forward. I will make a copy and stick it in the case.

Thanks for all the replies.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:39 am 
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continuity wrote:
Yes... yes, and YES!!!! If I'm not being clear.... YES!!!! You absolutely NEED to have "on or about your person" the documentation that verifies you have signature approval of the tax paid transfer relative the NFA items you are out and about with.

Just in case I'm not clear about this... YOU NEED TO HAVE A COPY OF YOUR APPROVED TAX PAID DOCUMENTATION...WITH YOU when in possession of NFA identified items.

Can't stress this enough. Possession of identified NFA items is ILLEGAL in the context of every State in the Union's, legal code. Your possession of appropriate documentation is, in general, your documented "affirmative defense", that is buried in each states legal code.

As a NFA friendly LEO, Please.. PLEASE... have a copy of your NFA transfer documentation available when you are out and about with that item.

Any questions?


Actually, I have a question.

First off, I agree that this is all really good advice. It seems very wise to have all of this paperwork with you - your tax stamp and associated documentation, etc. If your NFA items are called into question by law enforcement, I can see how this will have the practical effect of clearing the air very quickly and avoiding a trip to jail, hiring a lawyer, criminal charges, etc.

With that being said, what does the law actually say? IIRC, an ATF agent is allowed to ask for your documentation, and if you do not have it, you are in violation of the law. So, constructively, the ATF requires you to have your documentations should they ask for it. I understand that - no easy wiggle-room there.

What about state/local police? I live in VA, and I can't seem to find any silencer laws on the books suggesting that I have to produce paperwork to show that I am in lawful possession of my silencer any more than I would have to produce paperwork to show that I am in lawful possession of my cell phone, should I get stopped by state/local police. VA is a very gun-friendly state.

Like I said - I get it - you should have your paperwork on you! I also understand as a practical matter that the state/local police could call the ATF, and an ATF agent could then stick it to you if they can get to you in a reasonable time. I'm just wondering if there's actual law that I am missing here that says something different.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:41 am 
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DMY wrote:
continuity wrote:
Yes... yes, and YES!!!! If I'm not being clear.... YES!!!! You absolutely NEED to have "on or about your person" the documentation that verifies you have signature approval of the tax paid transfer relative the NFA items you are out and about with.

Just in case I'm not clear about this... YOU NEED TO HAVE A COPY OF YOUR APPROVED TAX PAID DOCUMENTATION...WITH YOU when in possession of NFA identified items.

Can't stress this enough. Possession of identified NFA items is ILLEGAL in the context of every State in the Union's, legal code. Your possession of appropriate documentation is, in general, your documented "affirmative defense", that is buried in each states legal code.

As a NFA friendly LEO, Please.. PLEASE... have a copy of your NFA transfer documentation available when you are out and about with that item.

Any questions?


Actually, I have a question.

First off, I agree that this is all really good advice. It seems very wise to have all of this paperwork with you - your tax stamp and associated documentation, etc. If your NFA items are called into question by law enforcement, I can see how this will have the practical effect of clearing the air very quickly and avoiding a trip to jail, hiring a lawyer, criminal charges, etc.

With that being said, what does the law actually say? IIRC, an ATF agent is allowed to ask for your documentation, and if you do not have it, you are in violation of the law. So, constructively, the ATF requires you to have your documentations should they ask for it. I understand that - no easy wiggle-room there.

What about state/local police? I live in VA, and I can't seem to find any silencer laws on the books suggesting that I have to produce paperwork to show that I am in lawful possession of my silencer any more than I would have to produce paperwork to show that I am in lawful possession of my cell phone, should I get stopped by state/local police. VA is a very gun-friendly state.

Like I said - I get it - you should have your paperwork on you! I also understand as a practical matter that the state/local police could call the ATF, and an ATF agent could then stick it to you if they can get to you in a reasonable time. I'm just wondering if there's actual law that I am missing here that says something different.


No worries. If you dont show your approved forms then you can easily be arrested under probable cause that it is an illgal weapon not registered to you. You are the one that will have a nightmare day with a pending weapons charge and a ruined shooting day. I for one find it easier to show a single piece of paper and go back to shooting but there are alot of bullheaded people that want to make others life difficult.

In VA i have witnessed 2 people on different occassions get arrested for not showing proof that the nfa items were legal, both had charges dropped but not after a night in jail because "ATF hasnt returned our call yet".

Seems like a simple choice to me!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:53 am 
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Just for fun I asked one of my best friends who is a city cop and has been for 15+ years, and he had no idea what I would need. Comforting, isnt it?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:56 am 
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KnuckleHead1 wrote:
Just for fun I asked one of my best friends who is a city cop and has been for 15+ years, and he had no idea what I would need. Comforting, isnt it?


Most cops i have run into have no clue about NFA and it gives the perfect opportunity to educate them!

NFA is geting more popular but it is still relatively rare.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:13 am 
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DMY wrote:
...
With that being said, what does the law actually say? ...

From what I recall the law says you are only required to produce your paperwork when an ATF officer asks but I don't recall it being all that clear about what is an "officer" of the ATF or how long you have to produce your papers or what happens between the time you're asked and the time it takes for you to produce said papers. It is suggested that you keep a copy of the paperwork with you when you have the NFA ... linky and quote below.

You probably won't find any law on any local books about showing your papers to the local po-po but you'll probably find NFA devices and more mentioned in the local penal codes as prohibited weapons. If the local po-po finds you in possession of a prohibited weapon they own you. And as others have said you may refuse to show the paper to the local po-po but he can hold you and take possession of your toys while he calls someone who has the authority to ask you for your papers and he can take his sweet time about it. As far as that goes when the PFY at the gun range asks for your papers you can refuse to show them to him as well but he can call the po-po and the po-po can hold you while he calls the ATF.

Personally I show my stamp to anybody who even looks at my NFA cock-eyed whether they ask or not.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... earms.html
Quote:
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:35 am 
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Noting for the 3rd time that I believe as a practical matter it is a good idea to have your papers... and to show them to a LEO if he asks...

DMY wrote:
...
With that being said, what does the law actually say? ...


This is the law I read as well. I just wanted to see if there was any law out there that I was missing.

VA is a gun-friendly state. They do not register guns, with the exception of machine guns, so I doubt there is a crime on the books that makes it illegal to possess a (non-machine) gun that is not registered to you, granted you are in compliance with all other laws (not a felon, not in a gun-free zone, have a license if you are concealing, etc.)

So the answer I am getting is that, by law, only the ATF agents can legally require you to produce the paperwork, absent state law that says otherwise. I know it's a narrow question, but is that correct? (I know that the police do not always follow this, etc, but I just want to clarify what the law says.)

BTW, all ranges I have been to in VA require you to show the range officer your paperwork for NFA items before you shoot. I always follow the range rules because I might want to come back again!

doubloon wrote:
From what I recall the law says you are only required to produce your paperwork when an ATF officer asks but I don't recall it being all that clear about what is an "officer" of the ATF or how long you have to produce your papers or what happens between the time you're asked and the time it takes for you to produce said papers. It is suggested that you keep a copy of the paperwork with you when you have the NFA ... linky and quote below.

You probably won't find any law on any local books about showing your papers to the local po-po but you'll probably find NFA devices and more mentioned in the local penal codes as prohibited weapons. If the local po-po finds you in possession of a prohibited weapon they own you. And as others have said you may refuse to show the paper to the local po-po but he can hold you and take possession of your toys while he calls someone who has the authority to ask you for your papers and he can take his sweet time about it. As far as that goes when the PFY at the gun range asks for your papers you can refuse to show them to him as well but he can call the po-po and the po-po can hold you while he calls the ATF.

Personally I show my stamp to anybody who even looks at my NFA cock-eyed whether they ask or not.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... earms.html
Quote:
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:42 am 
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So my next question is: Since I registered the suppressor with a trust and therefore the "owner" is the name of my trust, do I need to keep a copy of that with me too?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:56 am 
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KnuckleHead1 wrote:
So my next question is: Since I registered the suppressor with a trust and therefore the "owner" is the name of my trust, do I need to keep a copy of that with me too?


You don't need to carry around a copy of the trust, just the F1/F4.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Personally I make 5+ copies. One wraps around the can inside its pouch, one in the range bag, one with the original trust, one for the trust copy, one in the can's original box, and one for my logbook. IOW, you can never have too many copies.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:12 pm 
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KnuckleHead1 wrote:
So my next question is: Since I registered the suppressor with a trust and therefore the "owner" is the name of my trust, do I need to keep a copy of that with me too?


If the trust has your name on it then I wouldn't worry about carrying a copy with you, however if it doesn't have your first and last name on it then I would definitely keep a copy of it.

Cops know little about NFA, try PROVING that you are the legal owner if your name doesn't match up with the trust name. You are just adding a wrench into the equation by not showing the trust which has your name documented through out.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:46 pm 
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DMY wrote:
...
VA is a gun-friendly state. They do not register guns, with the exception of machine guns, ...

VA also has some oddball stuff about magazine capacity and some firearms with threaded barrels being "assault weapons".

I'm assuming the following was passed and is on the books but I don't know for sure.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... HB1796+pdf
Quote:
9 Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:
10 1. That § 18.2-308.6 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows:
11 § 18.2-308.6. Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited; penalty.
12 It shall be unlawful for any person to possess any firearm muffler or firearm silencer w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶
13 r̶e̶g̶i̶s̶t̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶i̶n̶ . It shall be an affirmative defense if the accused proves by a preponderance of the
14 evidence that he has properly registered the firearm muffler or firearm silencer with the National
15 Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6
16 felony.
~

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:55 pm 
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doubloon wrote:
DMY wrote:
...
VA is a gun-friendly state. They do not register guns, with the exception of machine guns, ...

VA also has some oddball stuff about magazine capacity and some firearms with threaded barrels being "assault weapons".

I'm assuming the following was passed and is on the books but I don't know for sure.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... HB1796+pdf
Quote:
9 Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:
10 1. That § 18.2-308.6 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows:
11 § 18.2-308.6. Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited; penalty.
12 It shall be unlawful for any person to possess any firearm muffler or firearm silencer w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶
13 r̶e̶g̶i̶s̶t̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶i̶n̶ . It shall be an affirmative defense if the accused proves by a preponderance of the
14 evidence that he has properly registered the firearm muffler or firearm silencer with the National
15 Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6
16 felony.
~


What oddball stuff do they have in regards to mag capacity and threaded barrels? I haven't seen anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Frig, now I have to search again ...

ETA: No guarantee I'm reading it right, it's all muddlespeak to me. I just see the "20 rounds of ammunition" and "accommodate a silencer" verbiage so it makes me wonder. Specifically it's talking about transfers as far as I can tell.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm
Quote:
An assault firearm is defined as any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of offence with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

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Last edited by doubloon on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:06 pm 
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doubloon wrote:
VA also has some oddball stuff about magazine capacity and some firearms with threaded barrels being "assault weapons".

I'm assuming the following was passed and is on the books but I don't know for sure.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... HB1796+pdf
Quote:
9 Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:
10 1. That § 18.2-308.6 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows:
11 § 18.2-308.6. Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited; penalty.
12 It shall be unlawful for any person to possess any firearm muffler or firearm silencer w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶
13 r̶e̶g̶i̶s̶t̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶i̶n̶ . It shall be an affirmative defense if the accused proves by a preponderance of the
14 evidence that he has properly registered the firearm muffler or firearm silencer with the National
15 Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6
16 felony.
~


Ah that's an interesting bill - good find. It looks like it was never voted on.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?951+sum+HB1796

The subsection it wants to modify has been repealed in it's entirety, so even if it was passed, this bill does not have the effect of current law as far as I can tell. This is a good example of "innocent until proven guilty until proven innocent" legislation.

Bender:
Generally, you have to have a valid concealed-carry permit if you want to carry certain loaded guns in certain places.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:13 pm 
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It does have my name, so I will leave it in the safe.

Thanks for all the info...


Bendersquint wrote:
KnuckleHead1 wrote:
So my next question is: Since I registered the suppressor with a trust and therefore the "owner" is the name of my trust, do I need to keep a copy of that with me too?


If the trust has your name on it then I wouldn't worry about carrying a copy with you, however if it doesn't have your first and last name on it then I would definitely keep a copy of it.

Cops know little about NFA, try PROVING that you are the legal owner if your name doesn't match up with the trust name. You are just adding a wrench into the equation by not showing the trust which has your name documented through out.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:15 pm 
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DMY wrote:
...
The subsection it wants to modify has been repealed in it's entirety, so even if it was passed, this bill does not have the effect of current law as far as I can tell. This is a good example of "innocent until proven guilty until proven innocent" legislation.
...

Yeah, another search produces this http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... 18.2-308.6
Quote:
§ 18.2-308.6.

Repealed by Acts 2009, c. 288, cl. 1.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:27 pm 
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DMY wrote:
Bender:
Generally, you have to have a valid concealed-carry permit if you want to carry certain loaded guns in certain places.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4


Thats interesting since I never ran into a problem open carrying a threaded Sig with a 20+1 magazine in FairTax county.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:12 pm 
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I recommend to every customer that I work with that they keep several copies of their stamps in several key locations. gun safe, range bag, glove compartment, etc so that they never get caught without a copy. Bottom line, no matter what state you live in, if law enforcement discovers that you have a silencer without your paperwork you will be arrested for illegal possession of a class 3 weapon which is a federal crime.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:08 pm 
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mark1916 wrote:
Bottom line, no matter what state you live in, if law enforcement discovers that you have a silencer without your paperwork you will be arrested for illegal possession of a class 3 weapon which is a federal crime.


Good advice, and that may be the case, but it's a shame, because you will be illegally arrested for a federal crime... one which you did not commit.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:11 pm 
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DMY wrote:
mark1916 wrote:
Bottom line, no matter what state you live in, if law enforcement discovers that you have a silencer without your paperwork you will be arrested for illegal possession of a class 3 weapon which is a federal crime.


Good advice, and that may be the case, but it's a shame, because you will be illegally arrested for a federal crime... one which you did not commit.


No different than having a script for medical marijuana and smoking on the beach without proof that it is legal. You are going to be arrested and have charges pending proof of legality.

No different, remember with most law enforcement you are guilty until proven innocent, your approved form is your proof.


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