Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

2nd Amendment and Freedom

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DMY
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by DMY »

Bendersquint wrote:
DMY wrote:
mark1916 wrote:Bottom line, no matter what state you live in, if law enforcement discovers that you have a silencer without your paperwork you will be arrested for illegal possession of a class 3 weapon which is a federal crime.
Good advice, and that may be the case, but it's a shame, because you will be illegally arrested for a federal crime... one which you did not commit.
No different than having a script for medical marijuana and smoking on the beach without proof that it is legal. You are going to be arrested and have charges pending proof of legality.
That is simply not true in all states. I live in VA, and there is no state law against having a suppressor, and no state law against me carrying without proof of ownership. Unless I am stopped by an ATF agent, a Virginia police officer cannot rightfully detain me or my suppressor for not showing proof of ownership. Unless there is law to the contrary that I am unaware of, that's the letter of the law. According to the state LIS, there is no "innocent until proven guilty" law in Virginia - that law was never passed. Your state might be different.
Bendersquint wrote: No different, remember with most law enforcement you are guilty until proven innocent, your approved form is your proof.
There is a huge distinction here - I am saying what the police are rightfully allowed to do. You are saying what the the police will wrongfully do anyway. I am not saying that they will not act wrongfully, but just pointing out the letter of the law.
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Bendersquint
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by Bendersquint »

I lived in VA for a number of years and have seen it happen, they were detained if they had reason to believe it might be illegal until they were have shown proof.

Happened to me at shooters paradise(r.i.p.) and as soon as I produced the forms I was sent on my way.

From the VA law....

"Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited"

How do you prove that it is registered if not by your approved tax stamp?





---Edited because my Iphone sucks at typing what my fingers tell it to type---
DMY
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by DMY »

Bendersquint wrote:I lived in VA for a number of years and have seen it happen, they were detained if they had reason to believe it might be illegal until they were have shown proof.

Happened to me at shooters paradise(r.i.p.) and as soon as I produced the forms I was sent on my way.
They/you were probably wrongfully detained.
Bendersquint wrote: From the VA law....

"Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited"
What is the citation of the VA code? Maybe you found something that I didn't. I seared the VA state code and I cannot find anything mentioning "firearm mufflers" much less anything about them being prohibited if unregistered. Post up the citation.
DMY
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by DMY »

Actually, no need, I found the citation. 18.2-308.6 - Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited... It was repealed in 2009.

So... as far as I can tell, Virginia does not have an active "innocent until proven guilty" law regarding suppressors. While a police officer may wrongfully detain you or your suppressor because you cannot prove ownership/registration, they would be doing so maliciously or because they simply do not know the law.

Also, I think that threaded barrel law was repealed in VA as well.
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Bendersquint
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by Bendersquint »

DMY wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:I lived in VA for a number of years and have seen it happen, they were detained if they had reason to believe it might be illegal until they were have shown proof.

Happened to me at shooters paradise(r.i.p.) and as soon as I produced the forms I was sent on my way.
They/you were probably wrongfully detained.
Bendersquint wrote: From the VA law....

"Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited"
What is the citation of the VA code? Maybe you found something that I didn't. I seared the VA state code and I cannot find anything mentioning "firearm mufflers" much less anything about them being prohibited if unregistered. Post up the citation.
They had reason to believe they were illegal thats all they needed, and yes I had a lawyer look into it and they were 100% legal and by the books on their actions.

This has happened not to me but my customers on no fewer than 3 occasions where they were detained in the last year or 2, lawyers stated that it was within their legal parameters until they verified legal ownership.
DMY
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by DMY »

Bendersquint wrote:
DMY wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:I lived in VA for a number of years and have seen it happen, they were detained if they had reason to believe it might be illegal until they were have shown proof.

Happened to me at shooters paradise(r.i.p.) and as soon as I produced the forms I was sent on my way.
They/you were probably wrongfully detained.
Bendersquint wrote: From the VA law....

"Possession of unregistered firearm mufflers or silencers prohibited"
What is the citation of the VA code? Maybe you found something that I didn't. I seared the VA state code and I cannot find anything mentioning "firearm mufflers" much less anything about them being prohibited if unregistered. Post up the citation.
They had reason to believe they were illegal thats all they needed, and yes I had a lawyer look into it and they were 100% legal and by the books on their actions.

This has happened not to me but my customers on no fewer than 3 occasions where they were detained in the last year or 2, lawyers stated that it was within their legal parameters until they verified legal ownership.
With words like "reason to believe", you're getting into a probable cause analysis. It's extremely contextual. If someone has a suppressor as they flee a robbed bank with a bag full of money, then the police can have reason to believe that they're being illegally possessed, and probable cause for seizure. On a milder example, maybe the person is exhibiting more subtle but suspicious behavior. Again, probable cause would reasonably have to be found. The facts surrounding each scenario are extremely important. This is a well established in VA and by the SCOTUS.

Otherwise, absent probable cause not arising under mere possession, current VA law treats possessing a suppressor the same as possessing a wristwatch or a cell phone (as long as you're not a felon, in a gun-free zone, etc.) Mere possession is simply not criminalized, and ownership does not need to be proven. Before the above statute was repealed, it was a totally different story, but not under current law. At this point, I'm thinking 1) you came across some bad legal advice, or 2) the legal advice is slightly out of context.

I'm open to any VA code, regulation, case law, or a real valid legal argument to the contrary. Otherwise, according to the law of Virginia, you keep on repeating the same incorrect statement of law.
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Bendersquint
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by Bendersquint »

I wish it were that cut and dry but even though the legal papers say one thing what happens in reality is another thing.

I am aware of several instances of detaining at a range of individuals that didnt want to show proof that it was legally possessed since the repealing. 100% legit and once they showed proof they were left alone. One was by state trooper and another by a sheriff(not some underling but the actual sheriff).

All those individuals HAVE sought very very good legal counsel and all were told they were within legal bounds and nothing could be done legally.

1-the legal advice was far from bad.
2-the legal advice was not out of context.

Biggest take away is that even if the law says one thing you can still deal with headaches if you choose to be bullheaded.
DMY
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Re: Do I need to keep a copy of my stamp with me?

Post by DMY »

Bendersquint wrote:All those individuals HAVE sought very very good legal counsel and all were told they were within legal bounds and nothing could be done legally.

1-the legal advice was far from bad.
2-the legal advice was not out of context.

Biggest take away is that even if the law says one thing you can still deal with headaches if you choose to be bullheaded.
I hate to beat this to death, but the subtleties in legal terminology can move mountains. What those lawyers say here is true - generally, police are allowed to make mistakes. There is very little recourse that can be taken against the police (the state) baring unusual circumstances ("civil rights" violations, etc.) The difference is that the fruit of these mistakes cannot be used against you. For instance, let's say that I was illegally stopped and searched by the police, and they found drugs in my pocket. Those drugs would not be admissible against me in court because the search was illegal, therefore, no proof and no conviction. Yet, nothing can be done to punish the police - they were "allowed" to make that mistake and illegally search me (which yes, could turn into a huge headache.)

I'm not saying you shouldn't keep your NFA paperwork with you - for practical reasons, you certainly should.
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