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Sound Suppressor Discussion
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:23 am 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 3145
Just ran across a most interesting new can review.

<< https://www.ammoland.com/2018/09/silenc ... z5U6d2ORV0 >>
<< https://www.full30.com/embed/df675e1dd1 ... 3f5ca6f7a4 >>

They wanted to match the 'standard' Dead Air HD - a nice compliment.

A question that comes to mind is were one to purchase 2 cans can they
be threaded together in one long configuration.

Wishing them much success as they are keeping the suppressor development
active.

HPA's passing will generate more jobs for America!

Just got a private response to share:

"Make Suppressors Great Again". :) :)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:02 am
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Image

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You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...and those are pretty good odds.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm
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The innovative implementation of the Switch Back
may someday lead to offering a customer the option to order an
'artillery-Luger' XL-suppressor option ... e.g, for Switch Back
ordered with extra extensions to their modular system.

For instance, aside from getting some further sound reduction
it would make for a fun exotic look on
a S&W 41 with a Bully Barrel and Randall Fung target grips*.

Might have been influenced from misspent youth driving this model 1958 El Dorado ... watching submarine
races on the Charles. :)
< https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/ac15 ... -prototype >>

* << http://www.funggrip.com >>


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Location: USA.
I think H&K has the patent on the first modular suppressor.Unlimited baffles can be added using their system.

I like johndoe3 picture of a suppressive loudener aka (rifle optimized)......ha...haw.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:42 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:02 am
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Location: N. Colorado
Quote:
I like johndoe3 picture of a suppressive loudener aka (rifle optimized)......ha...haw.


Capt. Link, Silencerco claims a significant noise reduction, for a rifle length barrel, where the baffles are flipped in the outer most portion. They claim it is a breakthrough in silencer design, and for a rifle using something like CCI Standard they claim 108 db (a significant sound reduction over the standard baffle configuration for the long configuration at 114 db on a pistol).

The picture above is from Silencerco to show graphically their design breakthrough. See their webpage on the Switchback.

https://silencerco.com/silencers/switchback-22/

_________________
You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...and those are pretty good odds.
Brett Maverick, gambler on TV (also used by Progressive leaders everywhere)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:30 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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johndoe3 wrote:
...
The picture above is from Silencerco to show graphically their design breakthrough. See their webpage on the Switchback.

https://silencerco.com/silencers/switchback-22/

What does it meter in long default configuration on a rifle?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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johndoe3 wrote:
Quote:
I like johndoe3 picture of a suppressive loudener aka (rifle optimized)......ha...haw.


Capt. Link, Silencerco claims a significant noise reduction, for a rifle length barrel, where the baffles are flipped in the outer most portion. They claim it is a breakthrough in silencer design, and for a rifle using something like CCI Standard they claim 108 db (a significant sound reduction over the standard baffle configuration for the long configuration at 114 db on a pistol).

The picture above is from Silencerco to show graphically their design breakthrough. See their webpage on the Switchback.

https://silencerco.com/silencers/switchback-22/


While I have never tried flipping baffles my first impression is its misinformation normally reserved for the month of April.I can see the increase in volume reducing SPL but concentrating gases into a jet stream is opposite of what we learned baffles do.I would be very interested in seeing shock-wave photos and freebore boost numbers.Its very interesting and I hope that all of us may someday be able to use this modular innovation.

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Knowledge cast's out the shadows in one's own mind -CL


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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I find it interesting that it will optimize a rifle, but not pistol. In a pistol I imagine the gases are only slightly higher in pressure, but may still be burning / expanding.

I think what they are probably messing with is venturi effect. If it is intended to work like a de Laval nozzle, it may help remove heat and energy.

The areas around the forward cones should have a very low pressure and essentially try to suck the stream back as it passes helping to trap and disrupt the flow out.

There is a full bucket of nerd that went into it, or maybe someone just assembled it wrong one Monday morning?

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It's not a silencer, it's a can of whoopass!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 3145
CanOfWhooppass wrote:
I find it interesting that it will optimize a rifle, but not pistol. In a pistol I imagine the gases are only slightly higher in pressure, but may still be burning / expanding.

I think what they are probably messing with is venturi effect. If it is intended to work like a de Laval nozzle, it may help remove heat and energy.

The areas around the forward cones should have a very low pressure and essentially try to suck the stream back as it passes helping to trap and disrupt the flow out.

There is a full bucket of nerd that went into it, or maybe someone just assembled it wrong one Monday morning?


Great application of Occam's razor (Not a subsidiary of Gillette)! :)

Well done, Sir.

"Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is the problem-solving principle that the simplest solution tends to be the correct one. When presented with competing hypotheses to solve a problem, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions. The idea is attributed to William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar, scholastic philosopher, and theologian." WIKI


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Posts: 34
I can see where playing with the stack on a rifle length barrel could change things. I've used a strain gauge to record the uncorking pressures on 4" .22 pistols and 16"-19" .22 rifles, and with a rifle there just isn't much pressure to work with.

Good on 'em for playing around and moving the peg.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 3145
Stan1 wrote:
I can see where playing with the stack on a rifle length barrel could change things. I've used a strain gauge to record the uncorking pressures on 4" .22 pistols and 16"-19" .22 rifles, and with a rifle there just isn't much pressure to work with.

Good on 'em for playing around and moving the peg.


Thank you for bringing up 'uncorking pressure' ... a topic I long ago read about but
forgot. Found Dr. Dater's article*.

Have read various published pressures from .22 5.5" barrels in past.
What have you found? And any information on reason .22 suppressor
should have a large expansion chamber. Folklore around ⅓ volume.

Best.






*<< https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovclou ... pDater.pdf >>


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:56 pm 
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Posts: 34
Historian wrote:
What have you found?


Is it OK to link to other sites from here? I ask because I've posted some info elsewhere and, i hope this doesn't come off wrong, I don't want to have to maintain the same data in multiple locations :mrgreen:

Basically I have a Pressure Trace II that I have used to test the uncorking pressures in the blast chamber of a .22 monocore with several different types of ammo, and today I used it to test the pressure at both ends of the same monocore using Eley Target Pistol. Spoiler alert - the pressure at the muzzle end of a .22 can is so low it's in the noise. Here is an edited version of what I posted elsewhere today. There is a lot more to the validation of the test setup and such, but here goes:

The graphs show the pressure drop from the blast chamber of a suppressor to the muzzle of the suppressor (not the muzzle of the pistol).

A couple of observations:
  1. Look how consistent this 25 year old Eley Target Pistol ammo is. You get what you pay for.
  2. The strain gauge on a 3.6" barrel using Eley std vel is reading about the same as the CCI Mini Mags on a 4" barrel from earlier tests. More tests are needed here.
  3. The pressure drop across a monocore is amazing. The pressures at the muzzle end are too low to measure; it's all noise (as in signal to noise ratio), so I don't believe any of the numbers. It took about 20 rounds to gather enough traces that looked like traces to get these.
  4. You have to wonder why every baffle in a stack isn't completely different from the others considering the last ones are running in a totally different environment from the first. SilencerCo seems to have picked up on this with their new Switch Back.


Image

Image


Last edited by Stan1 on Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:38 am 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 3145
Stan,
Impressive engineering!
Cross publishing is how information is propagated.

Learned useful information that will now be archived
in my voluminous 'Espasa-Calpe*' of Suppressor history. :)

Thank you.




*"The Enciclopedia universal ilustrada europeo-americana (also called Enciclopedia Espasa,
or Enciclopedia Espasa-Calpe, after its publisher) is a Spanish encyclopedia
comprising 72 volumes (numbered from 1 to 70,
with parts 18 and 28 consisting of two volumes each) published from 1908 to 1930
plus a ten-volume appendix ..."


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:56 pm
Posts: 571
Location: Dallas, TX
They could be lying, but the numbers don't seem to. It looks stupid quiet on a rifle in optimized layout.

Head to about 6:30 to see the db numbers and the configurations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNX49-AVRnc

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:36 am 
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Posts: 34
Historian wrote:
Stan,
Impressive engineering!
Cross publishing is how information is propagated.


Here is a thread on NFAtalk with some of my Pressure Trace II experiments. The data start at post 32 (had to order the equipment, etc.). The first graph I posted was an FRP image. I'm still learning how to make best use of the PT-II with suppressors. The maker said this is the craziest thing anyone has done with his tool :mrgreen:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=15769

While we're at it, another thread that may be interesting is Will It Meter?, where I meter some everyday things, some different cans and firearms, do some math, etc. Dr. Dater was a great help getting started down this path.

Note these data are not to be confused with official NFATalk data, it's my own work for your entertainment. Check this one if you ever wondered how a Welrod with neoprene wipes does over 50 rounds, or how loud is a paging bell tested with a mil spec meter. I also compare a LD 800B with a Radio Shack meter, some action noise, stuff like that.
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=15694
Image

HTH
Stan


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:37 pm 
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Senior Silent Operator

Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:37 pm
Posts: 141
Historian wrote:
Just ran across a most interesting new can review.

<< https://www.ammoland.com/2018/09/silenc ... z5U6d2ORV0 >>
<< https://www.full30.com/embed/df675e1dd1 ... 3f5ca6f7a4 >>

They wanted to match the 'standard' Dead Air HD - a nice compliment.

A question that comes to mind is were one to purchase 2 cans can they
be threaded together in one long configuration.

Wishing them much success as they are keeping the suppressor development
active.

HPA's passing will generate more jobs for America!

Just got a private response to share:

"Make Suppressors Great Again". :) :)


I watched a guy at the range 2 or 3 years ago put two Tirant M 45 suppressors together in every configuration possible (no backwards baffles though). We had no sound meter but lot's of suppressor guys and it was shot out in the open away from the walls and roof. We used my Tirant 45M on an identical Sig 1911 style. Worried about a baffle strike everything was clean and snug at all connections. Absolutely no improvement in sound reduction whatsoever. Now a meter may have said differently but these were real world conditions, above 50 F, no wind and no earpro. Used same ammo - Remington brass case 230 ball and Hush 230 ball. The Hush was noticeably quiet in the suppressors when all were dry but when wet with RemOil could not hear much difference. Shooting wet really must give you 4-7 or more dB of suppression. I use foamy "Blitz" brand spray white lithium grease I get at AutoZone and O'Reiley's. You can shoot through the foam if you happen to not check your suppressor bore like you should and will get no deviation of flight, no baffle or end cap strikes. A friend of mine with more money than me filled up an Oculus and an Element II in .22, a TiRant 9M and an Obsidian 9M, and a Obsidian 45 and an Octane with the spray foamy white lithium occluding the center passageway and then shot all of them... no problems at all. I have had baffle strikes with the heavy white lithium grease we used to pack AWC suppressors with and have had baffle/end cap strikes using wire pulling gel.. the gel can creep down and build up on the bottom of your suppressor if the whole unit is laid on its side after looking good after first being applied. Also, the Blitz stays foamy for days... I should fill up a suppressor and leave it on it's side for a longer period of time but I like shooting most all of them... I do have a pos GM-45 that I never use and it's a monocore so it will hold a lot, I may try that. GemTech really should have made their GM series longer like Liberty did with their Regulator, Mystic X and Cosmic, and I like Liberty's monocore engineering better, Dave and company do really good work and don't have an attitude.
Sorry all, I've had way too much coffee - time to put a new M-lok handguard on my SBR and go try it with my ancient S&H "sound moderator". It was patterned after the one made for the 10 or was it a 10.5 inch barrel in the Vietnam era Commando Colt M-16s.

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"I have a pocket protector"

52 NFA items, half are suppressors
MP5 select fire
US M3-A1 "Grease Gun"
Bushmaster select
Registered DIAS
5 SBR's
handguns...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:40 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 pm
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Location: Artesia, NM
johndoe3 wrote:
Quote:
I like johndoe3 picture of a suppressive loudener aka (rifle optimized)......ha...haw.


Capt. Link, Silencerco claims a significant noise reduction, for a rifle length barrel, where the baffles are flipped in the outer most portion. They claim it is a breakthrough in silencer design, and for a rifle using something like CCI Standard they claim 108 db (a significant sound reduction over the standard baffle configuration for the long configuration at 114 db on a pistol).

The picture above is from Silencerco to show graphically their design breakthrough. See their webpage on the Switchback.

https://silencerco.com/silencers/switchback-22/


Silencerco puts the mic in the wrong location (at barrel muzzle as opposed to silencer muzzle) for their metering, so their 108dB number is irrelevelent. Once they put the mic in the correct location then I'd like to see it. We have one of them coming to our shop soon so I'll put it on video with the mic in the correct location on multiple hosts and configs and upload it to YouTube.

ETA - As I said, wasn't 108, it meters around 110-111.

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Silencers, firing devices/initiators/detonators, and custom precision rifles.

www.cgsgroup.com
[email protected]


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