10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

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DanielWilson
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10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by DanielWilson » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:47 am

I'm considering an integrally suppressed 10/22 as my first step into the quiet world.

I see several brands of barrels integrally suppressed. But I want to be able to shoot the Aguila 60 grain SSS rounds successfully. For that, Internet wisdom recommends a 1:9 twist instead of the Ruger-standard 1:16.

Many, many barrel makers for the 10/22 don't even list their twist rate. That seems so odd, coming from the centerfire world in which twist rates are loudly discussed and boldly advertised. One of the better-priced options enticed me to query the manufacturer. http://www.radicalfirearms.com/product-p/s10-22.htm They're support person said the barrel was a 1:10 twist which was standard on the 10/22 (which it isn't) and made no attempt to answer whether it would handle the 60-grain round.

I haven't contacted yet, but YHM doesn't list twist either: http://yhm.net/10-22-integrally-suppres ... -1421.html
Ditto Thompson Machine: http://www.thompsonmachine.net/?page_id=14
Ditto Paladin Armory: http://paladinarmory.com/22Rifles.htm ... but they will build a suppressor off a customer-supplied barrel.
SRT specifically recommends other cartridges: http://www.srtarms.com/1022.htm


Is there a barrel you would recommend for these criteria?

Thanks!

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by Tony M. » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:21 pm

Most integrals are designed to allow cheap bulk ammo to run subsonic. almost all of them will run 1/16 twist unless specified otherwise.

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CMV
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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by CMV » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:51 pm

I only shoot them out of a 1:9 AR w/ 22 conversion kit. My 10/22 sends them everywhere. They don't cycle either rifle for me, but I'm sure either rifle could be purpose-built around that round to cycle reliably.

VC19NC is Volquartsen part number. Around $300.
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DanielWilson
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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by DanielWilson » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:49 pm

Thanks, that Volquartsen looks nice. There are also some lower-priced 1:9 barrels available.

If one does not want to lose performance from the .22, would you recommend a screw-on suppressor instead of an integral? The more I read about integral suppressors, the more it appears they cut performance by effectively cutting barrel length. Am I understanding correctly?

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by Capt. Link. » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:10 pm

DanielWilson wrote:Thanks, that Volquartsen looks nice. There are also some lower-priced 1:9 barrels available.

If one does not want to lose performance from the .22, would you recommend a screw-on suppressor instead of an integral? The more I read about integral suppressors, the more it appears they cut performance by effectively cutting barrel length. Am I understanding correctly?
Not all integrals reduce bullet speed its a matter of design if the barrel is short.You can port a longer barrel to reduce speed and use a port blocking collar when using subsonics and high velocity ammo.
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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by Allsmiles » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:29 pm

I've got a Huntertown Arms Fusion T22 and love it. Remove all 3 port screws and it will keep most bulk ammo subsonic. Easy to clean (5 minutes) and since the barrel is machined down from a 10/22 bull barrel, you start with a good base. Just know that the outside tube us 0.9265 and works better free floated for easy removal. I used a TacSol Vantage stock and it is a fun gun that always get a huge WOW response from people who have not shot suppressed before. Price is about $400 on street. They haven't built the 10/22 TD version or I would also have one of those also.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by DanielWilson » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:13 pm

Thank you both.

Now, that Huntertown T22 looks intriguing. They say if you need to replace the barrel to change twist rate, that can be done. Their shop is in Fort Wayne ... I think I'll visit them soon!

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by quietoldfart » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:39 pm

Since you've specified your preference for stability with Aguila 60gr SSS, a notoriously difficult round to stabilize which has a reputation for clipping baffles even with perfectly concentric installations, I would suggest an integral over a screwed-on suppressor. Specifically a reflex type integral with a relatively short baffle stack and a long over-the-barrel section with porting near the muzzle to minimally reduce velocity (if at all - 8" of barrel before the ports should be plenty to retain full velocity) while venting substantial amounts of expanding gases prior to running into the baffles. Should there be any yaw induced by the particular contours of your baffle stack, risk of baffle contact (or unduly close proximity passage which can also influence accuracy) will be minimised. Perhaps as short as 5" of baffles would be preferable. With such a low velocity cartridge and long bullet it would seem ill-advised to use a very long baffled volume. Perhaps a custom reflex integral using a slightly larger diameter tube? If I were seeking to use that cartridge I might consider a 1.25" tube rather than the conventional 1" OD, then use 5 or 6 short K baffles ahead of the muzzle, a vented locating plug on the threaded barrel, and a handful of holes about 3/16" diameter arrayed through an area between 1" and 3" behind the crown - leaving the last inch of rifling intact to help preserve control of the bullet. Of course the ports would need to be tidied up in the bore to eliminate interference with passage.

In my recently completed takedown rifle project in .22lr a 10" length of barrel was used, with 2 ports 1/8" diameter placed at 6.5" and 8" from the breech to vent excess pressure before a row of 12 baffles in a 1" tube. The barrel diameter was reduced to 0.5" for the 4.5" space behind the vented muzzle spacer and the rear plug seals against the full 0.75" of the Winchester barrel - a 1:16 'Cooey' .22lr barrel I cut down and re-crowned and threaded. There is no measurable velocity drop with this arrangement compared to the original 20" barrel with several different cartridges tested. So perhaps I should revise my rather cautious sentiment above... you really wouldn't be likely to see any loss of velocity with ports starting as close as 6.5", but perhaps better to err on the side of caution when sticking to such a low-pressure cartridge as the one you favour, going with a longer bore prior to venting. In my case a clean bore of 1.75" remains after the second vent hole. While I could design a different rear plug so as to enable a third hole at 5.5", and while this would probably not cause any significant degradation in performance, I am satisfied with the quietness of the rifle as it sits, being substantially quieter than my suppressed .22lr pistol. When using CCI Quiet (MV measured between 603fps and 618fps) it is similar to the closing of a well-made car door. I have not tested the Aguila 60gr as I'd prefer not to damage my aluminum K baffles, which stack up to about 8" and have a 0.25" bore. The CCI Quiet display perfect stabilisation, rendering perfectly round holes at any range out to the 40 metres so far tested.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by quiettime » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:56 pm

60gr SSS is subsonic even from an 18" barrel. Porting will not be needed.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by DanielWilson » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:55 pm

Thanks for the specific recommendation and account of your experience.

I'm afraid that's beyond my very rudimentary fabrication and machining skills ... but ... perhaps in a few more years I can build one to those specs. It sounds like you've worked out a very nice design.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by quietoldfart » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:19 pm

My goodness, you make it sound as though I were a talented machinist. Hardly. Persistent though, so I manage to make things now and then and they usually work well enough, though a certain 'home made' quality tends to prevail. Ever since watching the film 'Day of the Jackal' as a young man I harboured a certain want to have such a rifle for myself. Not being a gifted machinist such as the gunsmith fellow represented in the film I only recently braved the task. The result works, quite well, but having tried a shot with Federal .22lr shooting at about 1200fps I don't think I shall try that again. Not sure the gun is up to quite that level of stress. But the trigger works, the little catch on the coarsely threaded pipe stock holds the bolt back well, reloading isn't very difficult, and the thing seems to group rather well with the subsonic ammunition I've tried. Total weight is 3 pounds 6 ounces now with a Burris Droptine 2-7x scope mounted, and the trigger pull of about 5 pounds (my mechanical/leverage thinking was not the best) has become quite manageable with the addition of a 3/8" diameter trigger shoe fitted today. The body is made of 6061. The bolt very much home made, carved from a bolt I had in an old box of nuts and bolts. The extractor and trigger and sear are made from O1 steel, hardened after shaping. The suppressor and stock tubes are 6061 and the K baffles are 7075 as is the vented spacer, but the front and rear caps are acetal plastic rod.

Image

Image

Image

A kind of textured rubber fabric glued around the rear of the suppressor tube helps as a forestock. The recent addition of a threaded-in grip makes triggering much easier than trying to do so with my thumb held beside the striker to keep it out of the way. A rubber cap on the grip provides containment for a dozen cartridges. The sun shade/kill flash was made of plastic plumbing pipe turned thinner to fit and a number of soda straws glued into a bundle, trimmed, then blackened with some flat spray paint. And I made a tool roll out of waxed cotton and a neoprene jacket material inside, with separated slots for each part. Rolled up the weight comes to exactly 4 pounds and a very compact 14" long x 4" diameter roll very much like a carpenter's chisel roll. It's a somewhat liberal interpretation of the original, beginning its departure from the fact that I never did like the massive wooden crutch end as a buttplate, and that I was unable to conceive of a manner in which I could duplicate the cocking action of the bolt in the original with my tools at hand. I shall probably make another, quite different and a little more compact. Next time patience might prevail further and I'll manage to wait for a slimmer and shorter scope to come available - it is somewhat challenging finding decent optical quality in a very compact scope with small bells or a strictly tubular shape. This scope is delightful to use, but not really appropriate.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by quietoldfart » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:29 pm

quiettime wrote:60gr SSS is subsonic even from an 18" barrel. Porting will not be needed.
Sorry if my intended meaning was not clear; what I was indicating was that barrel ports could be used to help in suppression of noise through vented pressure earlier in the barrel, without costing velocity if kept to a certain minimum distance from the chamber. With the SSS round one would of course want to retain the full power available, not slow it down. But by venting into a reflex volume before the baffles one can accomplish a small but significant improvement in suppression of noise, making it possible to reduce the baffle stack length and keep risk of accuracy-depriving strikes with this difficult bullet to a minimum. Reducing the effective barrel length by porting to too great a degree would almost inevitably reduce the velocity of this lower powered cartridge making it impractical for most uses.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:00 am

quiettime wrote:60gr SSS is subsonic even from an 18" barrel. Porting will not be needed.
Porting is to dump bore gas b/f bullet exit. Then it must struggle to retransit ports b/f it can pass thru baffles.

Ported reflex is better than simple slide over. Traps high pressure gas better.
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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:21 am

quietoldfart wrote:Image
Sweet!!! Looks like kit for SIS Technical Services "wet work."
I'd like a 100rd drum mag attachment. Like for Ruger 10/22.
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by Historian » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:56 am

Quietoldfart, your work is exemplary. The Day of the Jackal
was also my favorite when it first came out as a book ~1971 and
then the movie a few years later.

I play the DVD at least once a year for escapist fun.

As for Aguila 60gr SSSAguila, it is 'silly stable' exiting from
my Ray Brandes Bully Barrel with its 1:8 twist - the Aston
Martin Vantage of Smith and Wesson 41 barrels.

What bolt action did you use? Your own or did you take
an existing one.

Many thanks for showing your great accomplishment
and brightening up a dull rainy day.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by quietoldfart » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:58 pm

Why thank you Historian. I blush. The bolt was turned from a 14mm diameter, 8.5cm long bolt, reducing the OD to the diameter of the thread root which dominates 1/2 of the length - 0.5". A trace of the thread still shows on the rear half of the finished bolt. This was drilled out leaving about a 1mm wall thickness through most of the length with about 1cm intact steel in the front. That solid portion was drilled for a small tungsten pin which floats in the hole, retained by use of a neodymium magnet embedded from the side. Slots were milled for the extractor, extractor retaining spring clip, sear, and along the top a pin guide to preserve rotational orientation and prevent it coming all the way out. Rather too complex and fussy overall. In my next effort I shall seek to render something much simpler and more strongly built. This will have to involve a rather different sort of striker and sear setup, as I wish the bolt to rotate into locked condition and the current layout depends on a strictly fore/aft movement. There must be resources online somewhere in terms of alternate sear and bolt designs... only I haven't managed to find such treasures thus far. Most bolts I see are extraordinarily complex, far beyond my means to manufacture.

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Re: 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel suitable for 60gr SSS?

Post by Historian » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:56 pm

quietoldfart wrote:Why thank you Historian. I blush. The bolt was turned from a 14mm diameter, 8.5cm long bolt, reducing the OD to the diameter of the thread root which dominates 1/2 of the length - 0.5". A trace of the thread still shows on the rear half of the finished bolt. This was drilled out leaving about a 1mm wall thickness through most of the length with about 1cm intact steel in the front. That solid portion was drilled for a small tungsten pin which floats in the hole, retained by use of a neodymium magnet embedded from the side. Slots were milled for the extractor, extractor retaining spring clip, sear, and along the top a pin guide to preserve rotational orientation and prevent it coming all the way out. Rather too complex and fussy overall. In my next effort I shall seek to render something much simpler and more strongly built. This will have to involve a rather different sort of striker and sear setup, as I wish the bolt to rotate into locked condition and the current layout depends on a strictly fore/aft movement. There must be resources online somewhere in terms of alternate sear and bolt designs... only I haven't managed to find such treasures thus far. Most bolts I see are extraordinarily complex, far beyond my means to manufacture.
Elegant and creative!
Fabulous! Clever unit.

By the way look at Enfield .303 bolt
design structure ... "... don't shade your eyes,
plagiarize
". :)

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