Thompson Machine Clandestine (SBR AR 22LR upper) w/ CHD

[JohnDS]

The upper I ordered finally arrived! So cool, very quiet to shoot and easy to take apart to clean. I put a few things on it =D

36 grain ammo groups horribly (hard to hit clay pigeons at 35 yards) but 60 grains are great! I knew it was 1x9 twist going in and I'm glad. Now I can get rid of all that pesky SSS Aguila ammo. The only malfunctions I had were a result of ammo. Shot about 300 rounds the first day.

Edit to add: The 36 grain ammo used on the first day was Federal Bulk Pack. Note in the pictures - it is the worst group of the 11 types of ammo tested.

Sorry for lack of white balancing.

[2manygunz]

Very nice! Congrats.

[J Krammes]

Nice. So Fed bulk pack is a no go for this set up? I was really interested on one... Will it cycle subsonics, or does stantard ammo stay subsonic?

Jeremy

[este]

1:9? That's weird isn't it?

[goteron]

I hope fed bulk works well in it. They advertise it as such, and I stocked a metric ton of it for mine.

[JohnDS]

The 36-40 grain groups are pretty terrible. I'll be putting it on paper tomorrow, all I know is I was having a hard time hitting clays at 35 yards offhand with the 36 gr Fed bulk pack. Pop in a mag of 60 grain SSS Aguila and had no issues hitting the same clays at the same distance. I may be getting a 1/16 twist since I plan on shooting bunnies with this gun and bulk pack is cheap.

Not to say Fed Bulk doesn't work in it - it does & has no issues cycling. But the accuracy.... =( as stated above.

I didn't notice the Fed Bulk going super/transonic. It was pretty quiet. I'll pay closer attention tomorrow when I hit the range.

[rockman96]

Have you tried the Remington GB's with it? I think that's what they use to test and proof with. It seems like I remember Brooks saying they didn't experience any accuracy issues shooting the lighter bullets through the 1x9 twist.

[JohnDS]

Brooks told me on the phone they hadn't put it on paper for groups. So how he would know the grouping from what you're saying I don't know. I haven't put it on paper either, but I will tomorrow & I'll post pictures of the results. With 36/40 gr and 60gr.

Also I won't shoot Remington ammo. Ever. My experiences with it have been less than ideal and I have no intention of giving them yet another chance.

[rockman96]

Brooks told me on the phone they hadn't put it on paper for groups. So how he would know the grouping from what you're saying I don't know. I haven't put it on paper either, but I will tomorrow & I'll post pictures of the results. With 36/40 gr and 60gr.

Also I won't shoot Remington ammo. Ever. My experiences with it have been less than ideal and I have no intention of giving them yet another chance.

Relax. I never told you anything definitive, but since you brought that up I did a search....here is what I based my comment on, and this is a direct copy/paste/quote of Brooks himself:

Our Clandestine barrels are dedicated 1 in 9 twist .22lr chambered barrels. They will stabilize everything, and are very accurate.

No cheesy .223 chamber adapter here We use CMMG bolt kits that have the chamber adapter removed, and that we have customized to enhance reliability and accuracy.

And:

Federal Bulk Pack, and I think that is purely an ammo problem. Remington Golden Bulk and Federal Automatch are quite accurate. With Minimag, the Clandestine is a tack driver.

They don't advertise it for Fed bulk, they advertise it for Rem GB:


And the thread is here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49590&p=492236&hili ... ne#p492236
You may not like Rem GB's, but if the gun maker is telling you they work well while the Fed bulks do not, I think I would give their recommendations a shot before I got too disappointed. Nice looking setup, btw.

[JohnDS]

Good info, sorry for getting up in arms. Guess I'm quick on the defensive this week.

Also - I went back on my word. I didn't want to leave out ammo in my test so I did use Rem GB, Thunderbolt and Subsonic. I promise I bit my tongue as I was shooting it to avoid cursing up a storm .

I shot a total of 11 different ammo (what I had on the shelf at home, the Rem I got from my brother).


10 shots with each ammo on each target. I adjusted the scope to be more centered after the first two groups were going off paper. Even without all 10 shots on paper - it was nothing impressive. After doing this test I don't really want to go bunny shooting with this since it will effectively be spray and pray. Possibly after I increase accuracy noted later.
Following are the results from the range trip:

The Gun - Thompson Machine Clandestine SBR upper w/ Leatherwood CMR 1-4x24 30MM on Larue SPR 1.5 (LR-104). The lower is a Tactical Innovations T15 sbr'd in caliber "multi."

The Ammo

The Target

Target #1 Remington Golden Bullet Bulk 36 gr plated?

Target #2 Remington Thunderbolt 40 gr lead

Target #3 Remington Subsonic 38 gr lead

Target #4 Federal Bulk Pack 36 gr copper

Target #5 American Eagle 38 gr copper

Target #6 Winchester 555 36 gr copper

Target #7 Winchester Subsonic 40 gr lead

Target #8 CCI Mini Mag 36 gr copper

Target #9 Aguila SSS 60 gr lead

Target #10 Fiocchi Subsonic 38 gr lead

Target #11 HSM Hi Velocity 36 gr copper
Not pictured due to battery on the camera dying RIGHT as I was trying to take it. Grouping was similar to #7.

Also: I brought a chronograph and did 5 shots with each ammo. In retrospect I wish I'd done 10.


Conclusions:

Winchester subsonic, CCI Mini Mag, Aguila SSS and Fiochi are really the only ammo that grouped halfway decent. Of the 4 mentioned it seems CCI Mini Mag and Aguila SSS are the way to go.


I thoroughly cleaned the gun when I got home and looked down the barrel (from the action down the barrel). It looks like the lands of the rifling are bent inward a little bit into the bore path at the muzzle end. Possibly from being cut down on too fast of an RPM or too dull of tooling? I dunno. I'm going to try to get a picture of this later tonight/tomorrow as I'm currently away from my Canon 5D & my point and shoot is dead. Going to also get pictures of a few other barrels from the same view to compare.

Also noticed there isn't a target crown, will probably send it off to ADCO or someone to have this done. I know it's a short barrel - but I don't like 2-6"+ groups at 25 yards.

[AngryFish]

I'm interested in seeing the development of this thread. My Clandestine has produced some awful groups as well. It seems regardless of ammo. 25YDS Benched, CCI Subsonic, best group was about 4.5" with quite a few unexpected fliers that were either off target completely or 3 to 4 inches from the main group.

I'ts extremely quiet but definitely not a tack driver.

[seattlite]

Whats the specs(length, twist) of the barrel?

Edit...found it, 1:9.

[goteron]

This is starting to scare me, I should have mine approved in a month or so, I was really looking forward to some serious accuracy.

Im sure TM will make it right, I hate to be without a rifle I waited 8 months for though.

Im hope they respond in here with some insight.

[imyomama]

oh .no .. looking at the holes on the target , I thought this was a 100 meter test ... then I read it's 25!!!! good holy moly!

I'd have that on gunbroker the very next day!! something's not right .. maybe the crown or something!!!

[TOOL1075]

I can shoot smaller groups with an MP5 benched at 25 yards and a red-dot. seriously.

[goteron]

I PMed Brooks asking him to read and contribute to this thread. I will be very unhappy if accuracy is as bad as it looks for a $1400 gun and 8 month wait.

[TOOL1075]

barrels are very important parts of guns.... so.... yeah.... I don't know what to say.

[strobro32]

I pulled some of the tests I did on my 4.5 inch barrel TM Clandestine P/SBR.

I was shooting from a bench, no rest, with a cheap ATI red dot.
Range was between 15 and 25 yards.
I never thought I would be posting these. If I did, I would have tried harder.

I do get better accuracy with my MkII target/TacSol combo but I cant shoot my 275rd drum with it....yet.

I call my TM SBR my "fun gun" as I am not a target shooter. I only shoot cans. I hate the cans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NxLtVG9_eg

I admit I have a vested interest in this thread as my upper is for sale. I'm selling it because I need the $ to work on my MkII/ 275 drum adapter project. I would like to say, that even though I've never met them, I consider them friends. Although, I'm not sure I'm crazy enough to get their logo tattooed on me yet. Remind me to ask for their phone #

Here is a list of all the HV I tested. I'm not showing all the targets as some were used for other testing. This is about average. Please note my testing was not so much about accuracy as it was testing reliability for my fun gun.
CCI Mini Mag HV RN 40 grains
CCI Stingers HV HP, 32 grains
CCI Velocitor HV HP, 40 grains
Blazer RN 40 grains
Winchester Super X HV RN 40 grains
Winchester 555 HV HP 36 grains
American Eagle 40 grains HV
Remington Thunderbolt HV RN
Remington Yellow Jacket HV TCHP 33 grains
Remington Golden Bullet HV HP
Federal American Eagle RN 40 grains
Federal value Pack 550 maroon box HV HP 36 grains
Federal Game Shock HV HP, 40 grains

Best grouping was Fed Game Shock followed by CCI MM. I will send it back to them for a re crown. I have emailed them and the reply was, "No problem."




I say talk to them. They have been great to me and I still recommend them ever chance I get. I will be buying more TM stuff.

[Brooks@Thompson Machine]

No worries guys!! If you're having problems with your Clandestines, just send them back to us and we'll get them shooting right. That said, the Clandestines are ammo sensitive. CCI Mini-Mag is the recommended ammo for these uppers and rifles.

[strobro32]

See.

[goteron]

Brooks, thanks for chiming in. I know you guys would make it right, just wanted to get the ball started. I am sending you a PM to send mine back for a re-crown.

Also, speaking of these guns, is there a quick way to load these mags? I know there was at once a guy who made a mount, but they are not longer available.

[JohnDS]

That's great news I'll be sending mine in to get crowned. Do you guys want the whole upper so you can test it when it's done or just the barrel?

Has anyone else with one of these looked down the barrel from the rear? I'm wondering if I'm the only one with lands that bend into the bore path at the muzzle end. (it's very slight, but noticeable)

[redtazdog]

1:9 twist barrels are made for the heavy 60 grn ammo not the light bullets
Some people call soda can size groups at 25 -50 yrds good, if you want good groups get the
propper barrel twist for the bullet and velocity used.
1:9 is double the twist thats needed for the light bullets so dont expect
50 or even 25 yrd groups that a stock ruger 10/22 will make.
I used to make barrels for 22 Lr in the 1:9 twist but because the 60 grn ammo can get spendy I
dont make any more and most just want a cheap accurate shooter that the 1:16 gives.

[jt526]

Brooks, thanks for chiming in. I know you guys would make it right, just wanted to get the ball started. I am sending you a PM to send mine back for a re-crown.

Also, speaking of these guns, is there a quick way to load these mags? I know there was at once a guy who made a mount, but they are not longer available.

M60joe's loader:
http://users.zoominternet.net/~picplace ... _costs.htm


Blackdog machine also had a loader out for a while that you might find around used.

[JohnDS]

1:9 twist barrels are made for the heavy 60 grn ammo not the light bullets
Some people call soda can size groups at 25 -50 yrds good, if you want good groups get the
propper barrel twist for the bullet and velocity used.
1:9 is double the twist thats needed for the light bullets so dont expect
50 or even 25 yrd groups that a stock ruger 10/22 will make.
I used to make barrels for 22 Lr in the 1:9 twist but because the 60 grn ammo can get spendy I
dont make any more and most just want a cheap accurate shooter that the 1:16 gives.

If you look at target #9 - that is 60 grain ammo. At 25 yards it's an abysmal group for the ammo "best suited" to the task. I believe it will improve with the lands at the muzzle being corrected & a crown added.

I have several other 22LRs with 1/16 - i just wanted a 1/9 to mess around with (and by mess around with I mean drop rabbits at 0-100 yards)

Edit: Brooks offered to make it right and have the upper sent to him. That being said - I had a local smith re-crown it for me. Will be doing another accuracy test in a week or two.