223 Gold Dot on Deer

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glocker17
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223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by glocker17 » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:00 pm

I have previously posted my success with the 64gr 223 Gold Dot on hogs, got a deer with the same load yesterday. One shot in the neck dropped him instantly. I really like this bullet.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by Joker31D » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:06 pm

nice one, it baffles me that people say its not enough for deer even with modern bullets but say its enough for humans with a 200 year old bullet design (FMJ) I think a 223 with modern bullets are just as effective as 243 and 25's with old style bullets that barely expanded if at all. I hunted last year with a 223 last year using Federal Bonded bullets and they were pretty nice, even on hogs, my buddy uses Fusion 62gr 223's for his daughter and she took a big doe last year that was bigger than most bucks I saw, it dropped on the spot.... nice deer btw
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by tsands974 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:34 pm

Nice buck, .223 is my go-to round for whitetails, loaded with 75 grain Hornadys. Never lost one and never needed more than 1 shot.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by RJT » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:17 am

Used to use 64 Gold Dots as well, but my freebie stash dried up. Federal Fusion 62s have been working well for me now. I shot 37 does last year (MLD hunts) with them, and never lost one.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by glocker17 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:09 am

tsands974,

How well do the 75 Hornady expand.? I have a supply of those as well.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by tsands974 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:22 am

They are the TAP FPD bullets, and with every bullet wound I've inspected, the bullets fragmented into several pieces after passing through the ribs. The internal wounds are nasty, turning the vitals into mush with all the fragmentation. Over-penetration is a concern where I hunt, which is why I opted for a heavy fragmenting bullet. The larger fragments are usually lodged into the ribs or the skin on the far side of the deer.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by Joker31D » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:42 am

I have used TAP's before on duty, they do an awesome job on ribs, they are nasty if you hit a human femur or any big bone, just viscous. Used them South of the border and the local LEO's thought we were using FMJ's until the wounds were seen. Our TAP rounds were staggered like tracers but instead it was barrier rounds every 5 and the fragmenting TAPS for the remaining 4 in each string. The Barrier rounds were nasty on glass and still left a big wound channel but when the frags hit, they exploded in tissue. I am trying Trophy Bonded later this year, they are supposed to hold together pretty well and a friend told me he saw a double shoulder shot with them ending up under the skin on the far side, that is something I need to see for a 223.

(Not sure which TAPS you used but there are different Hornady TAP rounds, The Frag or Urban (FPD) and Barrier Blind (GMX, all Copper) The Barriers look like a SMK almost, the FPD are red tipped.)
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by glocker17 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:47 pm

As far as I can tell, the 75gr BTHP is the same regardless of packaging. The T2 version in 5.56 has a different nose shape but construction appears to be the same. The FPD in 75gr doesn't have the red tip, so I am guessing its just like the match in a different color case.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by poikilotrm » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:06 pm

Joker31D wrote:nice one, it baffles me that people say its not enough for deer even with modern bullets but say its enough for humans with a 200 year old bullet design (FMJ)
I don't know anyone that thinks the 5.56mm is enough round for combat. I have a picture of a Hi-Lux I lit up with a PFC in Baghdad. We each expended about half a mag, and most of that was to punch through the windshield. The guy inside was shot several times, and survived. The range was just a few meters.

Nobody who has ever been in an engagement has been stunned with the efficacy of 5.56, and the M855 presently in use is even shittier than M193.

The FMJ design is ensconced in law for a number of reasons, and excellent function is not one of them.

I would never use 5.56 as a hunting round for deer and hogs, because I consider it unethical. A .308 with a 150gr SP round slaps a dinner plate exit wound, and makes for a humane kill. Shot placement matters no matter what, but it becomes quite critical with a 5.56.

Let's see the exit wound on that deer you got.
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by tsands974 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:25 am

How the combat efficiency of a 5.56mm FMJ got mixed into a deer hunting post with heavier fragmenting or bonded expanding bullets is beyond me. I have spent thousands of 5.56mm and 7.62mm FMJ rounds overseas, and I am well aware of FMJs' shortcomings on humans. However, change the bullet, the range and the setting (getting to take all the time you need for proper shot placement), and that is all I need for an ethical kill on a deer.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:13 am

It relates because the round is being used on a living creature. It also relates because of Joker31's post.
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by tsands974 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:52 am

I'm with you on the living creature thing, and I read Joker's post as well. However, I think the critical factor here is that we are comparing two totally different purpose-built rounds that are of the same caliber. While both are being used on live creatures, one was purposefully designed to cause minimal damage to one type of living creature, while the other bullet was purposefully designed to cause maximum damage to the other type of living creature, which yield very different results.

I have personally observed people hit center mass with 7.62mm FMJ and live, at least for prolonged periods of time. This performance would be unacceptable for a hunter as far as ethical kills are concerned. However, with an expanding bullet of the same 7.62mm rifle, you have a devastating combo. Same with the 5.56mm bullets in my opinion.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just explaining my position. I know this is a long-debated topic that some people love to jump all over.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:23 pm

No feathers ruffled here. I have no emotional investment in anything, just ask my ex. The question is: Can a 5.56 with any bullet construction lead to reliable humane kills on big game?
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by RJT » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:32 pm

Big game? No. But I don't consider whitetail big game.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:49 pm

F&G in every state disagrees.
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by DKDravis » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:38 am

The use of .222 or .223Rem on deer-sized game (and hogs) has been the topic of endless discussions on virtually all shooting and hunting fora ..

I used to hunt Roe-deer (live weight up to 25- 30 kg /60 lbs.) with a .222 .. It was an erratic performer even when using good quality softnose bullets around 60 grains .. I now use my 22-250AI or my venerable old 6,5x55 Swede on the Roe-deer .. or .376Steyr 300grn subs ..

I would not consider the .222 as "enough gun" for anything larger than the Roe-deer .. The .223 is a different kettle of fish though, IF it has high enough twist rate to stabilize heavier bullets, like 75 grains or even 80 grain SP's
Getting the full potential of muzzle-velocity (with a standard barrel length) + the heavy bullets it will perform adequately on something like Whitetail or Fallow-deer -- (Which is what we have here) but the hunting laws do not allow it here, the energy level at 100 m for the .223 is too low and the minimum bullet weight is 9 grams = 140 grains :? ..

Even a .243W is considered too small for the larger deer here .. the "hogs" here are all Wild Boar and can be quite big .. 150-200lbs is not unusual.. :mrgreen:
Also they are hard to kill using smaller calibers, unless the shot is perfectly placed.

I use .376Steyr on wild Boar ... With an ATEC Carbon2 can ... :mrgreen: 250 grain Barnes-TTSX at 820 m/sec --
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by tsands974 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:48 am

The deer I hunt here are typically 100-150 pounds max, and most every shot is within 100m. With these deer at close range, the 75 grain frangible has made an ethical kill 100% of the time. However, I am not hunting the 300 pound deer up north, nor am I shooting any distance. If the animals were any larger or if my shots were farther, then I would switch to a larger caliber.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by glocker17 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:41 am

No feathers ruffled here. I have no emotional investment in anything, just ask my ex. The question is: Can a 5.56 with any bullet construction lead to reliable humane kills on big game?
Yes it can, many deer and pigs would agree with me. I have never lost one in the field.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by Joker31D » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:34 am

As a Desig Marksman in Afghanistan, I was very surprised by the 5.56 (77gr) one time when I was spotting for one of our shooters who was a Army and Marine Corps trained Sniper(Former Marine), he was having trouble with the Sr25 our team was just issued before the deployment (He was a holdover from previous team and had to turn in his M24 because of unit Politics) and as he was trying to fix a double feed, we started taking fire, to provide cover I started to engage and watched a threat fall forward and never get up after I placed 2 shots center mass at 400yards, it surprised the hell out of me and him both as he was looking through the scope and getting ready to touch the round off. He thought he fired and when we ducked down and started to bound back (rest of team was covering) he counted his rounds and he never fired a shot. Funny thing was the Jtac was watching through a designator on the hill next to us and confirmed "His" shot, later the shooter told him that it was me and I did it with a 5.56. I didnt care one way or another but the 77gr is a lethal round and is a different animal than the 55gr. I'm not trying to say I'm the best shot in the world, quite the opposite, but I was never allowed to go to the course, not because of my scores in BRM (Never shot below Expert in 16 years, only missed perfect 3 times by 1 round each) but was bound by my MOS. 2 months later I was medevac'd and never got a chance to try it again because my 20in rifle was taken from me and they reissued me an M14.
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by tsands974 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:10 pm

We were supposed to get the 77gr overseas but it just didn't happen, had to live with the 62s in my M4. I mainly used the M24 though, and used the suppressed M14 off and on. We were also supposed to get M110s too, but I missed out on that one also before I was medivac'd out and discharged... I did get the 175's for my M24 about 3 months in, which I loved.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:35 pm

The 5.56 was redesigned to circumvent the Geneva Convention on expanding bullets. The redesign was to cause the shank to snap under sufficient force to b/c 2 (or more) tumbling projectiles. Soviets did the same w 7.62x39 and 5.45x39. Yet if they drop enough momentum, they remain intact to ensure penetration.

Commercial variants have expanded and enhanced these effects. Plus, they aren't restricted by Geneva and Hague.

In the end, shot placement is the greatest variable.
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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by JeffWard » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:33 pm

Joker31D wrote:As a Desig Marksman in Afghanistan, I was very surprised by the 5.56 (77gr) one time when I was spotting for one of our shooters who was a Army and Marine Corps trained Sniper(Former Marine), he was having trouble with the Sr25 our team was just issued before the deployment (He was a holdover from previous team and had to turn in his M24 because of unit Politics) and as he was trying to fix a double feed, we started taking fire, to provide cover I started to engage and watched a threat fall forward and never get up after I placed 2 shots center mass at 400yards, it surprised the hell out of me and him both as he was looking through the scope and getting ready to touch the round off. He thought he fired and when we ducked down and started to bound back (rest of team was covering) he counted his rounds and he never fired a shot. Funny thing was the Jtac was watching through a designator on the hill next to us and confirmed "His" shot, later the shooter told him that it was me and I did it with a 5.56. I didnt care one way or another but the 77gr is a lethal round and is a different animal than the 55gr. I'm not trying to say I'm the best shot in the world, quite the opposite, but I was never allowed to go to the course, not because of my scores in BRM (Never shot below Expert in 16 years, only missed perfect 3 times by 1 round each) but was bound by my MOS. 2 months later I was medevac'd and never got a chance to try it again because my 20in rifle was taken from me and they reissued me an M14.
If one of your two shots clipped his spine... the bullet design didn't matter.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other... just stating a possible contributing factor.



I hunt hogs with a 110gr Barnes Tac-TX at 2100fps out of a 300BLK SBR (Suppressed with a Si-Co Omega). Hogs in Florida NEVER need be shot outside of 60-70 yards. From the AR platform, I don't think there's a better option on hogs, and I imagine whitetails would be even easier to knock down. Violent expansion, 110gr of mass, and 100% weight retention. They're not as fast as a 5.56... but a better bullet option than any 5.56 round.

The same weapon/ammo serves beside my nightstand...

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by glocker17 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:07 am

I have acquired a few boxes of the 75gr Hornady and will take them out next weekend. Firing out of a 17.5" Tikka 1-8" twist bolt gun, hope they perform well.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by Unobtanium » Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:18 am

I killed my first deer ever last season using a 5.56 from my 16.1" DDM4. The entrance broke 3 ribs, the heart and lungs were severely damaged, and the exit took out another 2 ribs. Shot her behind the shoulder, text book. She took off down a hill and made it 70 yards before flopping over lifeless, blood pouring from her snout and the bullet holes. I used RA556B. This year, I'm going to try the 75gr gold dot.

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Re: 223 Gold Dot on Deer

Post by Unobtanium » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:16 pm

poikilotrm wrote:
Joker31D wrote:nice one, it baffles me that people say its not enough for deer even with modern bullets but say its enough for humans with a 200 year old bullet design (FMJ)
I don't know anyone that thinks the 5.56mm is enough round for combat. I have a picture of a Hi-Lux I lit up with a PFC in Baghdad. We each expended about half a mag, and most of that was to punch through the windshield. The guy inside was shot several times, and survived. The range was just a few meters.

Nobody who has ever been in an engagement has been stunned with the efficacy of 5.56, and the M855 presently in use is even shittier than M193.

The FMJ design is ensconced in law for a number of reasons, and excellent function is not one of them.

I would never use 5.56 as a hunting round for deer and hogs, because I consider it unethical. A .308 with a 150gr SP round slaps a dinner plate exit wound, and makes for a humane kill. Shot placement matters no matter what, but it becomes quite critical with a 5.56.

Let's see the exit wound on that deer you got.

RA556B 64gr Bonded:
Image
Entrance:
Image


Exit:
Image

Ground where she was hit (heart/lung tissue present):
Image



Resolution: Image

I am very curious to try 75gr Gold Dot, this year!

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