14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

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dark2023
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14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by dark2023 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:42 pm

So as you may or may not know, the ATF has made rulings that a shotgun sold originally with a pistol grip only, that has never had a stock is not a "shotgun", it's a "firearm" just like an ar-15 receiver. There is no minimum barrel length for such an item. The only thing that matters is that it not be short enough to be considered concealable, then it qualifies as an AOW. The length the tech branch has stated it must be over is 26 inches in total length. Multiple people have sent letters to the ATF tech branch asking about the legality of doing this and every one of them has been told that it would not be considered a shotgun as long as it never had a stock, and therefore would be legal.

I plan on picking up a Remington 870 (81191) PGO and then attaching a shockwave technologies witness protection style grip to it, and slicing the barrel off for a total length of 26.5 inches. I may eventually grab a +1 magazine extension and possibly a magpul fore-end for a slightly more futuristic approach.

I'll attach some images of what I'm going for.

A few question though.

First, how would you guys go about cutting the barrel?
I have been told to use a heavy duty pipe cutter, which seems like it might work, but I'd prefer an option bit more precision. I realize that Remington sells shorter than 18'' barrels but I've been told it's a hassle to purchase them and I'd rather not have to spend the money on a new barrel if I can re-purpose this one.

More importantly, how does one go about re-crowning the barrel?
Is there a simple way to do so? I would prefer not to go to a gunsmith as I dont want to have to argue the legality of the length, most of my local gunshops are surprisingly unfriendly, or tend to charge insane prices for any work. I also prefer the satisfaction of finishing a project on my own.

Next, does anyone know how the ATF views concealment of such?
I have been told that concealing such a firearm under a trenchcoat renders it an AOW as it is concealed on ones person. I do not plan on doing this, but would putting it in my vehicle as a "truck gun" in a concealed manner also cause the ATF to view it as an AOW?

What is the likleyhood of the ATF deciding that they no longer feel the same way about the legality of such, after the fact?
I know this has happened a few times before (Eg: Atkin Accelerator). Is this something I should fear? Is this were to happen what does one do?

What should I expect as far as recoil goes?
I've been told that birdshead grips tend to help with shotgun recoil, I've also been told that a barrel around 14'' tends to reduce recoil as there is less length for higher pressures to build behind the projectile. However, I figure you guys would probably have a better idea what I would be dealing with considering this is mainly an NFA gun forum.


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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by Kramer » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:53 pm

I just built a witness protection 870 shotty, but I decided to be safe and registered it on a Form 1 as a SBS. Here in PA those pg only 14" are on the line as being "Offensive Weapons" and I felt safer throwing a stamp on it.

I sold the original 28" barrel on egay and bought a factory Remmy 14" tube plus the same bird heads grip that you want to put on yores. Looks good.

dark2023
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by dark2023 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:22 pm

Where did you buy the barrel from?
I've been told time and time again that Remington will not sell any barrels under 18'' to anyone but law enforcement.

Have you shot it yet?
How did it preform / hows the recoil?
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by L1A1Rocker » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:52 pm

Back in the early 90's (prior to the TX CHL law) I bought a used Mossberg 500a w/pistol grip at a gun show. At the time I believed it to be a "long gun" under TX law and legal to keep in the back of my car (pistols were illegal at the time to keep in your car). So now the law is that shotty is a pistol wit a really long barrel? And what's more I can put a short short barrel on it???

BUT, I need to confirm that this shotty came from the factory with only a pistol grip? Anyone know how I can confirm that?

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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by mk23 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:23 pm

That's sexyy. 8)

I need to make one too!

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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by continuity » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:28 am

dark2023 wrote:Where did you buy the barrel from?
I've been told time and time again that Remington will not sell any barrels under 18'' to anyone but law enforcement.

Have you shot it yet?
How did it preform / hows the recoil?
First, I want to make it clear that my input is not advocating the manufacture of an illegal firearm item. In other words, please do not make a shorter than 18" (for that matter, less than 18-1/4") shotgun barrel unless appropriate NFA/State law is being complied with. If you are having trouble understanding what I just said, do not read any further.

I have yet to purchase a factory Rem870/Moss500 barrel that is shorter than 18" for any of my NFA SBS's. Even though there is a taper to the barrels, it's just not that hard to set them up in a chop saw, or if you're careful and patient, a vise using a hacksaw. A bit of care in removing any burrs and squaring up the muzzle end, a little bluing and a bead sight kit, will provide a factory looking barrel. I did send a 14" barrel out to have choke tube threading done.

Only picture I have of the 14" 870. Disregard the lower one. It's an 18" bullpup.

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dark2023
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by dark2023 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:13 am

So now the law is that shotty is a pistol wit a really long barrel? And what's more I can put a short short barrel on it
No, the law sees them as neither a pistol or a shotgun, just a generic firearm, like a blank ar-15 lower. The best way to confirm this is to check the model number somehow. If it's a Remington it should be an 81191 (there are a few others but that the main one), I dont know the PGO from factory model numbers for Mossbergs
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by dark2023 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:10 pm

A few questions that should be pretty easy for anyone that knows much about the 870 platform (I used to own one but it's been awhile)

First, what magazine tube extension is that? I like how short it is, matches the barrel perfectly. I'm going to assume it's a +1 extension.
Only picture I have of the 14" 870. Disregard the lower one. It's an 18" bullpup.
If anyone knows where I can get a +1 extension for under $40 I would love to hear it. The only ones I can seem to find are the vangcomp offerings and they're a bit pricy for me.


Secondly, for anyone that know 870s well, the Remington "81191" 870 offering comes with a factory +3 extension.
Will this require any special tools to remove, or should it be as simple as getting the magazine cap off of a basic 870?

If I want to replace this with a basic magazine cap, will I need to get a shorter magazine spring?
I'm assuming compressing the one that it comes with might be a bad idea, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is there any reason I could not just cut the included spring at the 2/3 point and use it anyway?


All responses and any help therein would be much appreciated.
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by jreinke » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:48 am

dark2023 wrote:Where did you buy the barrel from?
I've been told time and time again that Remington will not sell any barrels under 18'' to anyone but law enforcement.

Have you shot it yet?
How did it preform / hows the recoil?
I bought both of my 14" 870 barrels from these guys.

http://www.botach.com
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continuity
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by continuity » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:34 pm

dark2023 wrote:...
If I want to replace this with a basic magazine cap, will I need to get a shorter magazine spring?
I'm assuming compressing the one that it comes with might be a bad idea, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is there any reason I could not just cut the included spring at the 2/3 point and use it anyway?...
The mag extension on the 14" barreled 870 was manufactured in much the same way the barrel was addressed. I hacked it off. :mrgreen: Gives me one more round. This one was made from an extension that has the plastic insert. Removed the insert and cut the extension tube (measured with the thought that it would initialy need to be a touch longer than in final form). Used a wooden dowel cut to length and peened the straight walled end over a bit to capture the insert.

Yes, cutting the spring works. Not sure of the actual ratio to original length, but 2/3's sounds about right. I did a highly technical and calibrated thumb "it feels about right" compression check on mag spring tension between the modified one and a factory length spring, to get it right. Took a couple of "cut it shorter" tries to get what I wanted. (shoved shells in until the resistance sorta kinda matched up with a full mag on a factory 870.)
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by Samson104 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:10 am

If you buy the shotgun with a pistol grip and 14" barrel and put your own conventional style stock does the ATF now consider it a SBS that would need to be registered??

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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:16 pm

Samson104 wrote:If you buy the shotgun with a pistol grip and 14" barrel and put your own conventional style stock does the ATF now consider it a SBS that would need to be registered??
Would have to be registered BEFORE you put the stock on it.

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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by swordman235 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:55 am

Yeah it is imperative to register the arms just to make sure that he has already the authority to carry it.


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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by dark2023 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:36 am

I finally finished my project. Got the barrel CNC cut, de-burred and crowned for free at a local buddies machine shop.
Makes the prefect home defense type setup, fits through a typical doorway including edge of the door and hinge even sideways.
Though my purpose for this is purely a range toy, I already have a pistol for home defense.

The underbarrel light functions sort of like an aiming laser at close range. I haven't shot it yet but I plan on doing so within the next week or so.

Ignore the AK, it's only in the photo because these images are part of a set I was sending to a buddy and I wanted him to see the new "battlefield pickup" furniture I have on the rifle, among other things.

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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by kdcgrohl » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:11 am

dark2023 wrote:I finally finished my project. Got the barrel CNC cut, de-burred and crowned for free at a local buddies machine shop.
Makes the prefect home defense type setup, fits through a typical doorway including edge of the door and hinge even sideways.
Though my purpose for this is purely a range toy, I already have a pistol for home defense.

The underbarrel light functions sort of like an aiming laser at close range. I haven't shot it yet but I plan on doing so within the next week or so.

Ignore the AK, it's only in the photo because these images are part of a set I was sending to a buddy and I wanted him to see the new "battlefield pickup" furniture I have on the rifle, among other things.
Would you mind posting all the specs for the shotgun, er... I mean firearm? Thanks.

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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by dark2023 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:45 pm

What specs were you looking for exactly?

If you want the length and basic build info I guess this would be it.

Remington 870, 81191 model
flashlight magazine tube cap
enhanced Teflon magazine follower
14.25 inch barrel (CNC cut and crowned/deburred)
shockwave technologies grip

Holds 4+1, 2.75'' shells
overall length is 27 inches total
-----

I shot the thing yesterday, you have to hold on VERY tight, it's quite easy to lose grip on the forearm and have your hand come infront of the barrel. I realize that by the time this happens the shot has already left the gun and is probably multiple yards down range, but it's still quite scary. It can also hurt a bit as your hand comes across the ribbing. I will use a glove while shooting this until I can put a strap on the forearm.
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by kdcgrohl » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:26 am

That'll do. Thanks.

How do you like the mag cap light? Is it junk or do you think it will hold up?

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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by dark2023 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:34 pm

The light had issues with staying on through recoil at first but after adding a small tinfoil shim to the battery compartment it works fine.
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Re: 14'' 870 non-NFA witness protection clone

Post by Kramer » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:17 am

dark2023 wrote:Where did you buy the barrel from?
I've been told time and time again that Remington will not sell any barrels under 18'' to anyone but law enforcement.

The Remington 14" bead sight tube that I used is part # 24513, google it and you will find a number of them available. I bought mine from gunbroker.

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