#4 Buckshot is 'best'?

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#4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by TROOPER » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:23 pm

Probably a topic that has been beat to death by internet commandos and experts. But the inter-webz says that either #4 or '0' is best, yet 00 outsells both by a wide margin, and it just doesn't seem likely that all of the purchases are meant to actually shoot a buck.

If I understand correctly, the advantage of going smaller is that more pellets will equal to greater total frontal area, which in turn equals a greater wounding effect....

... on the other hand, if one goes too small, then while it's true that bird-shot will yield a larger greater surface area than #4 buck (assuming each pellet creates its own hole), the penetration suffers too much to be reliably effective.

The penetration is based on two criteria, performance in ballistic gel, and FBI handgun ammunition requirements. However, since 9mm performs within the FBI-stated parameters, does that mean that it is the beginning-and-end of all cartridges? Why would any agency use an AR if a 9mm performed ideally?

My point is that the FBI minimum-penetration requirements for a handgun are just that: minimum. In light of this, aiming for the minimum doesn't make sense, and perhaps bumping up the pellet size in order to increase penetration at the cost of frontal-area makes more sense. I theorize that 00 strikes the most reasonable compromise between wounding size over penetration.

That said, does anyone have any data beyond ballistic-gel to support this? Is it possible that most LE agencies use 00 simply because of its ease-of-find, mass-production, and corresponding price benefits versus #4 or single-0? Or to put it another way, if single-0 and #4 are "the best", then why aren't they more widely used by the people who might actually need to shoot someone?

I do welcome speculation, but I'd prefer historical fact discussion. Thanks-in-advance.

----- ETA -----
Herters makes a 'multi-defense' load which is a single .650 lead ball with 6 single-0. As a defense load, it doesn't seem to make the most amount of sense. But as an offensive load, it does. Any thoughts on this? What about the Herters double-ball, which is two of the .650 lead balls? Thoughts on this? Thoughts on any other 'exotic' loads?

----- ETA ----- (again)
The Box-O-Truth website is phenomenal, because they test it instead of speculating. But what they brought up regarding defensive shotgun loads is this: anything which meets the FBI penetration minimums will also pass through a wall. So the concept of a defensive load which will work on a 'bad guy' yet won't endanger the neighbors or your family.... well.... if you believe it exists, then tell me where to find it, because I'll saddle up my unicorn and pick up a couple hundred boxes.

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by doubloon » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:47 pm

Opinions ...

close range ... bedroom, living room, etc. ... not a lot of difference in the size of the pattern unless you have a rifled bore

gonna have to aim, not going to clear the bar shooting from the hip like the old west

based on those opinions have you investigated cut shells? Could be the best of both worlds maybe.
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by TROOPER » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:34 pm

I'd never heard of that until you mentioned it. A quick Google search shed some light on it, and while I haven't tried it, nor refute its potential effectiveness, I don't think that's the best option for my.. eh... intents.

"Across-the-bedroom" distances probably won't matter much from load to load, except with the Winchester Defender, and possibly this Herter's multi-defense. The Winchester has a single half-slug with three double-aughts. But in patterning the load, it makes a very consistent triangle with the slug in the middle. I suspect the slug is actually the reason the three are separating like that. I also suspect that the Herter's will do the same thing, or similar enough to not matter. It's curious, but the Herter's puts the ball at the tip of the cartridge, with the six single-aught behind it. I think the six single-aught try to move faster than the .650 lead ball, and end up being diverted around it as a result. This makes the pattern open up sooner than normal. But is it fast enough to matter across a king-size bed? I doubt it.

Plus, I like my shells to pull a sort of double-duty; HD, but also SHTF, and SHTF is a little more demanding, because realistic ranges are probably greater than a bedroom.

I dunno, the mixed-density shells are fun to think about, but I don't think anyone gets to live on the distance between them and regular old 00 inside of a house.

But the main questions regarding LE and double-aught versus #4 buck or single-aught... any thoughts on that?

---- ETA ----
Additional reading on 'cut shells' shows why a person would do this, and why a person shouldn't do this.

Why do it?: it can be used to convert something that's relatively ineffective into something relatively more effective... like bird-shot into an 'almost-slug'.

Why not do it?: The forcing cone of shotguns might not do well with the actual cartridge zipping down the barrel without much room to compress appropriately. Probably not a *Kaboom!* situation... but with 3.5-inch magnum turkey loads... that could be very ugly.

Why do it at all?: if a person has access to quality defensive loads, then this is a pointless activity, because it doesn't make a double-00 buck more lethal, and it doesn't outperform a slug. If you have quality defensive loads, then this should be a no-go.

Also, why isn't 000 more popular? When hunting deer, a through-and-through is more desirable than the same bullet stopping just short of exiting, because it increases exsanguination. Why is this true of deer but not people? Or is this undesirable strictly because of beyond-the-target collateral damage?

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by doubloon » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:07 pm

I prefer 8 or 9 ~.3" pellets with slugs on hand to load bypass
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by jreinke » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:42 am

Do you have a shotgun reloader? If so....Win AA hull, Win WAA12L (grey) wad, 22 gr. Win WST, Win 209 primer. 17 #4 buck stacked 5, then 1, then 5 then 1 then 5. Standard 8-point crimp. Muzzle velocity is 1325 fps, but muzzle energy equal to most reduced recoil 00 buck loads. All 17 pellets usually pattern on a type E silhouette target @ 25 yards with a full choke. Basically this is the 24 gram or 7/8 oz international trap and skeet load with buck substituted for #8 shot.
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by doubloon » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:49 am

Just what I need, a reason to reload something else when I haven't even got my old reloading rig set back up after rebuilding the garage. :mrgreen:
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by TROOPER » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:11 am

I do not reload. I actually bought all the reloading equipment, then sold it at a minor loss because I realized three things after acquiring it:
- I have no idea what I'm doing.
- I don't shoot nearly enough to offset the initial outlay for years at my current shooting schedule
- It was mostly done for 50 AE and 22 TCM, but 50 AE components are harder to find than factory ammo... a LOT harder. And I'm selling my 22 TCM.

I guess a fourth would be the accuracy advantage potential of reloading, but my longest shooting takes place with a 17 HMR at 100 yards, which isn't far, and 17 HMR is a rimfire.

The final part is the process of reloading itself. I like to feel productive, and there's a certain Zen to activities like reloading, but I'm able to achieve that satisfaction by making chainmail.

As a final nail-in-the-coffin, I'm getting ride of 6 firearms, and the dominate three remaining calibers will be 22 LR, 9mm, and 12-gauge. If I was keeping my 308 or shot my 44 Mag more often, that'd be a different story... but it would have to be an insane amount 'more often' to matter.


This is just a side-track. Back on topic: do either of you gentlemen know why LE uses 00 buck if the internet says that #4 and #1 are 'the best'? Is the internet wrong? Or is the internet right, but the difference isn't big enough to justify the logistics of switching over to a harder-to-find loadings for LE agencies?

And what about mixed-density loads? Is there anything to it? Minor advantage? No advantage? Possibly a disadvantage that I'm unaware of?

Doubloon: I possibly didn't clarify the cut-shells point I was trying to make. If you cut the top of a shotgun shell completely off and try to drop it down the muzzle-side of a shotgun barrel, it won't fit. The reverse is true as well, but hopefully there'll be enough pressure to force it.

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:44 pm

It's very easy to over think this. 00 is a long held habit from before testing showed some differences. My view is it is 50% training, 20% being on the ball that day, 20% luck/shot placement and what is left catches all the stuff like gear selection and the exact scenario that plays out. Find something affordable, reliable and avaliable. Then train a lot.

Bigger buck is slightly better at penetration and range but slightly worse on overpenetration and instant trama. Would probably never change the outcome of a gun fight.
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:37 pm

I'll take a stab at historical speculation:

I think that because the 00 pellets stack very nicely in the cartridge, that it got a reputation for good accuracy at a time before all the fancy wads and buffing concoctions leveled that playing field. I also think is was very popular, so a natural pick for military and police of the era. I think once the military and police adopted it, it was part of their DNA and will be for a very long time.

As far as the police, remember they don't get issued what is best tacticaly, it has to be PC and less likely to cause shoot through damage. A slain officer gains comunity support unlike shooting an inocent child in the next building.

The main purpose of a police shotgun for street cops is to not be a police rifle. About the only roll you will see a shotgun used for on a swat team is as a master key, a carbine or SMG has all the engagement rolls.
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by Syntax360 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:38 am

I've always stuck with the FBI(?) advice to use #1 - when I researched this a few years ago, #1 was deemed the smallest size pellets that reliably penetrate the recommended 12" in ballistic gel. My only gripe is that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of selection and local availability for #1... But I suppose I don't shoot shotgun often enough for that to distress me too much.

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by AkGun&ammo » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:57 am

in a normal room.....

waterfowl or turkey loads will give enuff "soft" penetration, and stop in drywall to protect those innocent people in their own bedrooms.

other loads are coyote and predator loads... most are BBB or TT at largest...

And looks better in the PC dept if you had to use the shotgun fer home defense.

my 12 cents, (or dime sized load) :twisted:

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by aries14482 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:17 am

Regarding minimum penetration and the FBI spec, it makes more sense if you understand the reasoning behind that minimum value.

Look up Dr. Martin Fackler and Dr. G. K. Roberts for all the information on the subject you could hope for.

In short, minimum penetration isn't the only criteria. 12" in ballistic gelatin was chosen because the FBI determined this was acceptable to guarantee a round penetrating an intervening limb would still be able to penetrate deeply enough into the torso to reach vital organs.

A 75gr OTM 5.56 round that fragments an inch into the wound track, pulps an area the size of a large fist, and has a portion that retains enough mass and momentum to still penetrate to 12" is superior to a 9mm HP that leaves a straight wound track the diameter of a pencil that penetrates to 12".

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by poikilotrm » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:48 am

Syntax360 wrote:I've always stuck with the FBI(?) advice to use #1 - when I researched this a few years ago, #1 was deemed the smallest size pellets that reliably penetrate the recommended 12" in ballistic gel.
Yep. I was going to post something similar. #1 works well on deer and patterns well.
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by Mueller 877 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:10 pm

I'll take a stab at this. I believe LE uses 00 for liability. They are responsible for each round fired. With that in mind, 00 has 8 or 9 pellets, depending on the round, while #4 has a 67 to 304 pellets (depending on weight) to have to worry about. I recently tried out some Federal Tactical with flight control wad and was really impressed with it. It is an 8 pellet load and at 10 yards it made a single hole as if I fired a slug. At 35 yards, all 8 pellets stayed within the black on a standard B-27 target. Using an Eotech, I found that all 8 pellets would stay within in the outer ring of the reticle out to 35 yards. I'm sure there is a huge risk of over penetration with this load but it was impressive nonetheless.

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:13 am

Mueller 877 wrote:They are responsible for each round fired.
Since when? :roll: :lol:
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by fishman » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:43 pm

ive shot a coyote with #F lead birdshot, which is basically #4 buckshot. (michigan nighttime coyote hunting regs only allow birdshot and rimfires).
from 25 yards away, full choke, roughly 15 out of 41 pellets hit the chest of the coyote. all pellets penetrated all the way through. considering that a humans chest is wider but not much thicker than a coyote's, more than 15 pellets should be expected on a man sized target at that range, and i have full confidence that all pellets would penetrate.

Im not trying to say that 00 shouldnt be used, but im totally sold on the performance of #4 buckshot.

btw, the coyote dropped in his tracks, he was running when i shot and didnt move another inch after he hit the ground.
Mueller 877 wrote:while #4 has a 67 to 304 pellets (depending on weight)
youre thinking of #4 birdshot. #4 buckshot has nowhere near 304 pellets, closer to 30
Mueller 877 wrote: 00 has 8 or 9 pellets,
sometimes 12 or 15, even more i'd imagine in 3.5" shells
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by TROOPER » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:16 pm

Oh yes, I have some 3-inch magnums laying about... give me a moment.

Well poop. I have the 3-inch magnum in-hand, but it doesn't say how many pellets. If I'm not mistaken, I think it's 15-pellets of 00. Also, either I'm an enormous pu**y, or those 3-inch magnums are awful on the shoulder. I think it's probably a 25/75 split, with me being 25% pu**y. Those 3-inch magnums are awful to shoot. If 3.5-inch magnums of buckshot are made, I sincerely do not want to shoot one. What would it be, anyway? 21 pellets of 00?

Does anyone have any experience with the Herter's "multi-defense"? It's one lead ball at .650 inches, and then 6 #1 buck pellets underneath that big ball. I think the idea is that the higher velocity of the pellets will force them to open up as they pass the ball, even at relatively short distances. I bought them because Cabela's couldn't sell them at regular price, and I figured at $2 per box-of-five, that they'd have to actually be incredibly shi**y to not buy. I've shot one, and it doesn't feel differently to the shooter... but what does that prove other than function?

Oh yes, Herter's also makes these double-ball in the 3-inch. It's just two .650 lead balls stacked on top of each other. The velocity from a shotgun barrel is just shy of a 50 AE. I imagine it's not significantly different than getting shot twice with a 50-cal Desert Eagle. I own a DE, and it's a blast to shoot. I can't imagine how awful it would be to receive one. Hell, it's a major discomfort just to send rounds down-range.

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by fishman » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:39 pm

TROOPER wrote: I think the idea is that the higher velocity of the pellets will force them to open up as they pass the ball, even at relatively short distances.
Why would the smaller pellets be going faster than the slug?
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by doubloon » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:55 pm

fishman wrote:
TROOPER wrote: I think the idea is that the higher velocity of the pellets will force them to open up as they pass the ball, even at relatively short distances.
Why would the smaller pellets be going faster than the slug?
Depends on the total weight of the payload and the amount of room for powder behind it.
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by fishman » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:29 pm

doubloon wrote:
fishman wrote:
TROOPER wrote: I think the idea is that the higher velocity of the pellets will force them to open up as they pass the ball, even at relatively short distances.
Why would the smaller pellets be going faster than the slug?
Depends on the total weight of the payload and the amount of room for powder behind it.
Yes, I understand varying weight and powder charge = varying velocity. But the whole payload should travel very close to the same speed
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by TROOPER » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:35 pm

fishman wrote:
TROOPER wrote: I think the idea is that the higher velocity of the pellets will force them to open up as they pass the ball, even at relatively short distances.
Why would the smaller pellets be going faster than the slug?
Because the wad is still pushing the 6 smaller pellets once the big ball clears the muzzle. They can't be made to pass inside of the barrel, but once they're all free of the muzzle -- and for just the briefest of moments -- that wad will compress the entire load by continuing to push the smaller buck pellets against, and then to the sides of that big ball.

Mind you, I'm not thinking anything outrageous like a 5-foot spread a few feet from the muzzle, but more than just buck-shot alone.

Imagine it like one of those "Pow'R Ball" hollow-points that Corbon makes. That big ball helps to open up the shot.

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by TROOPER » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:37 pm

You know what? They have a shotgun patterning stand behind the skeet fields that I like to use. Give me a few weeks and I'll see what I can do and provide pictures.

I'm curious myself to see if I'm full of hypothetical-bullsht or if there's really something to this thing.

I won't forget to do it, but it may take a few weeks, and I'll get it done.

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by whiterussian1974 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:07 am

I only scanned thru the posts. So discard anything that you wish.

The "Buck and Ball" .650 slug and 6 "0" pellets has been used since the Pilgrims. Soldiers used it to maximize the chance of creating an infected injury. Then the Enemy would die of sepsis. They would typically use rancid tallow embedded in the packing patch.

Ed Sanow's 'Handgun Stopping Power' says that rifled 12ga slugs have a 97% 1-shot-stop. "000" is about 92% and "00" about 87-92% at 12-20' range. ("000" is .36" and "00" is .33" So similar to 9mm vs 32acp. Plus, multiple wound tracks means massive blood loss. But not a sure stop. A slug is more like a baseball bat hitting their chest.)

When I did Security in the late '90s, my buddy carried a Mossberg 500. He asked what he should load. After thorough study, I said "000" buck in the chamber, and slugs in the tube. That way he could engage multiple targets if they were grouped up. Or eject the Buck and engage w slugs if I was wrestling w someone. (I wore a vest, but really didn't want pellets in my face or neck.)

The points that dub made about Backstop is important. Anything higher than #4 Birdshot will penetrate interior walls. Even #6 will pass through a single sheet of 3/16" gypsum.

So tailor your load to your perceived Threat, and any potential Bystanders in your Field of Fire.
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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by mbogo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:38 pm

I like #4 buckshot, but I really like BB and #2 turkey loads. Lots of lead in the air!

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Re: #4 Buckshot is 'best'?

Post by whiterussian1974 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:25 am

mbogo wrote:I like #4 buckshot, but I really like BB and #2 turkey loads. Lots of lead in the air!
Minimal penetration and threat of overspray. A real concern for "after the shoot" when you are charged with Voluntary Manslaughter for killing a Secondary Bystander because they bled out from a neck wound.
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