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Sound Suppressor Discussion
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:01 pm 
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I have a Bowers ASP 45 can which is an unboosted can, but weighs only 5oz. I bought it primarily for use on a PCC and it works great in that role - but now I am trying to add value to my purchase and run it on several other hosts (pistols) - which is proving out to be somewhat nontrivial.

The only pistol powder I have on hand right now is CFE - and it seems to only work well for my FNX .45. I am loading it to .1 grains under max published load to get it to cycle, and I am actually really happy with that load. The gun cycles, recoil is manageable and it is clean enough.

For my Glock 35 (40 S&W) - I can only get it to cycle by loading above max published load (behind a 200 gr bullet) - and while I am not seeing signs of high pressure, I am not interested in using this load.

For my Beretta 92 and FN 509t, I have not found a load that cycles these pistols with a 165 grain bullet. There are no published loads for CFE behind a 165 grain bullet, so I worked up to what I consider max load and do not want to push it further.


What I am asking from this community is what power/bullet combinations have you all had success with getting an unboosted can to cycle on your 40 S&W and/or 9mm pistols? I would prefer to use combinations that can stay at or under a published max load. I am willing to try other bullet weights but would prefer to remain subsonic. I suspect this may be a tall order, especially for 9mm, for an unboosted can...

I realize that there are a lot of factors that could affect the ability for my guns to cycle. I know the glock 35 will cycle with remington UMC 165 gr (supersonic), but I have not tried either of my 9mm's with factory ammo. I will be doing this on the next range trip, but would like to get some ideas for my next pistol powder purchase(s).

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Don't blow your gun up in your face because you are exceeding max loads when all you need to do is change to a booster mount can.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:27 pm 
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While I appreciate the response, I would mostly appreciate information that is relevant to my questions.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:19 pm
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ok, I'll spell it out for ya since you don't seem to understand the physics and don't seem to want to Google the question. You probably cannot safely do what you are asking. Pistol design requires balancing recoil force to mass being moved. A suppressor hard mounted to a barrel increases that mass a significant amount. The increase in recoil force required to operate the heavier assembly is large. There are very few if any SAFE ways to get that increase in recoil force. Extra hot loads can do it but only by grossly exceeding safe operating pressures. This is the warning you were politely given above.

Boosters exist for a reason. That reason is to decouple the majority of the mass of the suppressor from the rest of recoiling parts of the barrel/slide assembly. This allows standard recoil levels (and therefore standard and SAFE ammunition) to continue to operate the pistol as designed.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:10 pm 
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It would seem that nobody has posted anything from personal experience - and are only reciting some dogma that they believe to be true without testing it. I strongly believe that I can and WILL get reliable functionality out of my hosts with this can without exceeding max published loads.

I understand what a nielson device is and why people use them. I also understand that at some point, if a suppressor is made light enough - you do not HAVE to use them. Mine is 5oz - which is ~ 1/2 - 1/4 the weight of most boosted cans. Furthermore, on a rifle with a fixed barrel, boosters are pointless - and that was the primary use for the can I bought; secondary being for use on semi-auto handguns. I wanted it to be as light as possible because I am using the can to practice for practical shooting competitions (rapid firing) in an environment where excess noise pollution is a concern. I did not want a 13-20 oz hunk hanging off the end of my gun and I do not need it to be hearing safe - just less intrusive... When I want/need it to be extra quiet, I just run it wet...

While a boosted can would potentially allow me to run lighter loads, the benefit does not outweigh the costs (big weight penalty, extra complexity) for my application. And with a 5oz can - it will be possible to run it on most hosts without having to load to dangerous pressures, its just a matter of matching the right powder with the right bullet to achieve the correct amount of recoil while maintaining safe peak chamber pressures.

As for exceeding max loads - I do not recommend that anybody does this and I never stated that anybody should. I have been reloading for 15 years, have a Ph.D. in chemistry, work in the field of energetic materials including ballistic propellants and I have a strong professional background in internal ballistics. That does not make me immune to catastrophic failures due to excessive pressure, but it does enable me to competently experiment with non-published loads. Even still! I prefer to stick to published loads - they exist for a lot of reasons other than just CYA; and I would not assume to know all of the factors that went into the manufacturers decision to publish what they published. Just because you make a few (or even a few hundred) rounds beyond max load and get away with it - does not mean that some factor(s) you may not have considered will not coincide and cause catastrophic failure. This can even happen with ammo (factory or hand loads) that are made within spec - but the probability is much lower.

And here we are, back to the beginning of my original question - has anybody done any load development for a light unboosted can? I would love to have a starting point based on someones hard work, rather than doing it all from scratch (the point of a forum). So for anybody who is here for technical information - here is some actual technical discussion on the original topic.

Host: FNX45. This was the non-tactical version with an FN threaded barrel. The gun reliably cycles with an otherwise stock gun using an xtreme copper plated 230 gr. bullet on top of 6.1 grains of CFE pistol powder and a wolf large pistol primer - OAL 1.22. I did not bother to chrony this so I do not have that data. This is below published max load.

Host: Glock 35 with LWD threaded barrel. Xtreme RNFP 200gr copper plated bullet. At max load, the gun cycles most of the time with a few malfunctions. So I have some options here - I can use a smaller bullet at higher velocity (I still have ~ 200 fps to play with before I hit the sound barrier) without changing powder. Or I can use a slower powder (3N37, 3N38, longshot?) to get more velocity out of the same bullet. These should lead to more recoil and more reliable functioning. I could also try a reduced power recoil spring, but I consider that a last resort.

Host(s): Fn509t/Beretta 92 with gemtech threaded barrel. I can not find a published load for 165 grainers and CFE (outside of what competition shooters have developed) - so I am working essentially in the dark here. The load I developed is not cycling either gun. The same options as above exist - I can use a different powder (VV powders have published data for 165 grain bullets, im sure others do too) or I can go to something lighter like 147 grain bullets and keep using CFE. I already have 147 grain bullets (xtreme copper plated RNHB) so I loaded test rounds from 3.7 grains up to max load in .1 grain increments. Test pending...


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