Brass resizing

[bigbigpig]

I'm going to start reloading .223 and .308 and up to this point I've only done calibers without a tapered neck like 44 mag, 9mm, 45, etc. For the tapered neck brass does just the neck need to be resized? From what I've found the neck should be resized then trimmed to lenght, but eventually wouldn't the body of the case be too long and the neck be too short?

[mooster1223]

If shooting in a bolt gun AND the same bolt gun only, you can get away with neck sizing only. The brass (body) can't get any longer than the chamber. The neck can however grow(due to the brass flowing). You need to get a "neck size" only die for this. Redding makes a 3 die set that contains FL, NK & seater dies.

If you are loading for autoloaders, you need to full length size for reliable feeding. If you're not used to loading rifle cases, make sure to use plenty of well distributed lube. Hornady one shot works great and I don't even have to wipe or tumble when done.

[Brian HHI 7265]

That all depends.

For neck sizing... In addition one can "shoulder bump" to keep things chambering easily. A shoulder bump is just that... the barest of bumps against the die. More than shortening the case, it merely prevents it from elongating and allows easy chambering in guns w/o mechanical advantage. The nice thing about neck sizing for one gun... the ammo fits like a glove in the chamber for (in theory) best accuracy.

If shooting ammo in more than one gun, you should, unless extremely lucky, full length resize - as little as possible though. Some semis also need small base dies, but use them only if required- you'll know. If you full length resize, you'll also automatically be sizing the neck. IMO, FL resizing is to be avoided unless you absolutely must FL resize. You'll get best case life if you can avoid doing it.

In bolt guns I like the cartridge to have a very snug fit. I like the bolt to use it's leverage of the inclined plane of the lugs to "force" the cartridge into the chamber for the last thousandth. In the Contender/Encore, I like the barrel to close snug on the cartridge but w/o slamming the barrel shut- it should close firmly, like a safe door. In semis the ammo should chamber easily.

If loading specific brass for different guns, test the chambering as you adjust the sizing die. That is, without loading a complete round. You'll just be testing to make sure the brass is sized for that particular gun.

OK, now what do you need to do these things? If you buy a full length resizer you can neck size by screwing the die out slightly, shoulder bump by screwing it in but not quite allowing it to full length resize, and of course, FL resize. You can also get dies that specialize in just neck sizing, but you don't want those, and in fact, they'd be difficult to find. Most gun shops won't have them. If you tried to buy them you'd be unable to answer the questions required (unless you made something up by chance) and the seller would steer you toward "normal" sizing dies.

Yes, eventually you'll need to trim the length, as the neck will flow and get longer, but the cartridge body will stay to spec (whatever specification you decide) since you're sizing it that way.

I tried to answer your question fully, but I fear I may have only confused. Confusion wasn't my intent. If I confused, ask more questions.

[bigbigpig]

Great answers from you both - thank you very much.

I have a Dillon 550 that I use for 9mm, 45, 44 mag but I don't trust it for precision rifle loads because I've found the powder charge and bullet seating to be too inconsistent. Looking around I believe I've found what will work for my low volume of reloads but give your opinion on this:

- Lee Classic Cast Press
- Lee Deluxe Rifle Die Set, comes with full lenght sizing, neck sizing, and seating die
- Lee Factory Crimp Die
- Hornady Cam-Lock Trimmer
- Some brand of chamfer tool
- Some brand of priming tool

I can use my current powder scale, primer pocket cleaner, and tumbler.

Any thoughts?

[Artful]

Why is your Dillon not being consistant, What do you consider inconsistant?

If you want to weigh each charge for precision loading, I know the auto powder charger won't give dead on results but for geveral use ammo it should be close enough +/- .1 grain - are you using a spherical powder like H335 or something like a stick?

Why is your seating depth not consistant? Who's seating die are you using and how much variance are you getting?

I have use of several Dillon's, a Lee Turret press and Co-ax and they all work well.

Lee's factory crimp die works fine if you need it.

[Brian HHI 7265]

I use a Dillon 550B and it works nicely. I'd call Dillon and have them give you a hand trying to figure out what's wrong. You paid for that service when you bought a Dillon, I'd make use of it. If you need parts, they'll send them no charge. BTW, I use the Dillon for loading .45 ACP, 5.56 nato, .50 Beowulf, and I'm working on a few more cartridges. The cartridges named are all used in semi-autos. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I intend to load .30/06 on it and a wildcat based on the .30/06 case. The last is the only one not used in a semi. The Dillon should work for you. Powder to + - .1 grain is plenty accurate for 5.56, and for .308 and larger + - .2 should be good. Benchresters who need way more accuracy than we do all use thrown charges and don't weigh each charge.

FWIW, if you use a ball powder in the Dillon you'll find the volumetric measure to be scary accurate. I don't use stick powder in drop measures unless I weigh the charge (I'm not a benchrest shooter). If I do that, I drop a .1-.2 too light charge and trickle in the rest of the charge.

Lee has never been high on my list of suggested reloading gear, in fact it isn't even on my radar, so I'm not one to ask specifics of about their gear. The only product of theirs I actually go out of my way to use are their Factory Crimp Dies. I find their dies to be, at best, crude. My first Lee Dies, I didn't know any better and a salesman convinced me to buy the set. In fairness I loaded lots of ammo with that set of dies (.45 ACP) and they continue to work for load development, but when I got the Dillon 550 switched to their dies. Currently, I have a set of Lee .50 Beowulf dies that I'm cursing at. The tolerances on the sizing die are the pits. I have to screw the sizer W A Y out in order to get proper sizing done, and then it's out so far that it's impossible to full length size. It's for a semi-auto, so that creates huge problems. Unfortunately, they are the only game in town for that cartridge and I was forced to buy them or don't reload that cartridge. (that isn't entirely true at this time- but I won't go into it) Since getting that set of Lee dies, I've since gotten a new Hornady seater for the 500 S&W to use for seating .50 Beowulf, and am looking for a new sizer from a quality manufacturer, one who understands tolerances (CH/4D). One shouldn't need to do that when one buys a set of dies. It should be right, right from the start, period, not obviously bad from the start.

OK, so I don't like Lee. I have a friend who loves their stuff, and it works for him.

Depends what I'm doing, but I prefer to use Dillon, Redding, Hornady, RCBS, and Wilson dies in no particular order. There are other good ones I'm sure, like CH, but I haven't used them. I have far more RCBS dies than any other brand. I like their no BS guarantee. Heck, bust a decapping pin and they'll send you a small bag of 'em no charge. I like that. I had some other issues and they handled them, again, no charge. One thing I try to get in a seater die now is a "bullet aligner" built into it. Dillon and Hornady have that feature, probably others as well. The Lee .50 B seater doesn't have this, and again the tolerances are so large, it's nothing but problems. It's extremely difficult to get bullets to seat straight in that die.

I did get one set of RCBS dies that I think are no good, for the .17 Remington, but the jury is still out on that one, and frankly the verdict will never come in. The fast .17 is notoriously finicky and I had to go to benchrest techniques to get accuracy out of it. A change to Wilson dies and other changes fixed the problem. Was it the die set? I dunno, but I do think it was the seater. I have no way to prove it, and the die set might be good since I changed loading techniques so thoroughly that there is no way to prove it (neck sizing, neck turning, hand priming and straight line seater - all done by hand- no press). The sizer is OK, since I use it to bump the shoulder on the brass once in a while.

I use an RCBS Rockchucker as my single stage press, and I've used it for 40 years. It's loaded probably close to 50,000 rounds of ammo, if not more, and is still going strong. A good press is something you'll hand down to your kids. Where I'm going with this is, it costs very little more to buy quality and ruggedness; take care of it and have it forever. I'd be very reluctant to form brass or even swage primer pockets with a "C" press or an aluminum press. Other good brands (so I've heard) are Hornady, and probably the most rugged press of them all is made by Corbin, heck, it'll swage bullets and roll out .50 BMG cartridges. There are other good presses that I can't remember right now. Even used presses can be good if you can find them- a good press lasts for many lifetimes.

Sorry about the keyboard diahrea (sp?), but maybe that helped you to gauge the gear you asked about. It's a longer post than I wanted, but I'm leaving it as is.

[bigbigpig]

My 550B does mostly within .004" on 9mm but on a few rounds it goes out to .008". I called Dillon to ask them about it and they said that wasn't catastrophic but I should be able to get that tightened up by opening the bell and tightening the shell plate. I'll give that a try whenever I do 9mm next. The powder charge for 9mm varies around .2gr with a load of 3.6gr of Bullseye. I tried it with 44 Mag and it was much worse. So for 44 Mag I measure each individually.

I'm glad to hear others use the 550B and are satisfied. I was afraid I had a crappy reloader. What I don't quite understand with loading .223 on the Dillon 550B is the order of case prep and how it goes through the stages. Let me run down how I think the process goes on the 550B and you tell me how wrong I am. Let's assume I'm using fired brass I got from someone else. It will be used in an autoloader.
1. Tumble to clean.
2. Put brass into stage 1 and lube the neck.
3. Pull down on the press handle to deprime and FL resize.
4. Remove the brass before pushing the handle forward to prime it.
5. Throw it in the tumbler again for 30 minutes to remove lube.
6. Swage primer pocket if necessary.
7. Trim to length.
8. Chamfer neck inside and out.
9. Put brass back into stage 1 and only push forward to prime it.
10. Move to stage 2 and load the powder charge.
11. Move to stage 3 and seat the bullet.
12. Move to stage 4 and crimp.

Alright, how wrong am I?

[redtazdog]

My 550B does mostly within .004" on 9mm but on a few rounds it goes out to .008". I called Dillon to ask them about it and they said that wasn't catastrophic but I should be able to get that tightened up by opening the bell and tightening the shell plate. I'll give that a try whenever I do 9mm next. The powder charge for 9mm varies around .2gr with a load of 3.6gr of Bullseye. I tried it with 44 Mag and it was much worse. So for 44 Mag I measure each individually.

I'm glad to hear others use the 550B and are satisfied. I was afraid I had a crappy reloader. What I don't quite understand with loading .223 on the Dillon 550B is the order of case prep and how it goes through the stages. Let me run down how I think the process goes on the 550B and you tell me how wrong I am. Let's assume I'm using fired brass I got from someone else. It will be used in an autoloader.
1. Tumble to clean.
2. Put brass into stage 1 and lube the neck.
3. Pull down on the press handle to deprime and FL resize.
4. Remove the brass before pushing the handle forward to prime it.
5. Throw it in the tumbler again for 30 minutes to remove lube.
6. Swage primer pocket if necessary.
7. Trim to length.
8. Chamfer neck inside and out.
9. Put brass back into stage 1 and only push forward to prime it.
10. Move to stage 2 and load the powder charge.
11. Move to stage 3 and seat the bullet.
12. Move to stage 4 and crimp.

Alright, how wrong am I?

You forgot to clear the plugged up flash holes in your brass after
cleaning the lube off with the tumbler

[Innovative]

It's always best to full length resize IF you can do it accurately, and push the shoulder back no more than .002" This tool measures the chamber clearance that YOUR handloads will have in YOUR rifle.



You can read about it on our website.

- Innovative

[redtazdog]

It's always best to full length resize IF you can do it accurately, and push the shoulder back no more than .002" This tool measures the chamber clearance that YOUR handloads will have in YOUR rifle.

You can read about it on our website.

- Innovative

Your Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die is what I need.

[Innovative]

The economy needs to improve a little before I make another huge investment like that. If you're on our waiting list, I'll definetely let you know when they're back in stock.

- Innovative

[Brian HHI 7265]

Bigbigpig, I think you're doing too much handling. And as already written, you'll have to poke the corncob media out of the primer pockets. I did that once and I'll never do it a second time.

If it's military brass swage the primer pockets, then if needed, trim and deburr the necks. Lube, and then do everything else on the Dillon in one progressive "step". I wipe lube off of the outside of the case when I watch the tube. If you insist on lubeing inside the case neck, then use graphite.

BTW, I use Imperial Die sizing Wax for lube and the cases get lubed as I pick them up to put in the Dillon. Just a little smear on the thumb and forefinger does a lot of cases.

I know everyone says not to do it, but when I have huge quntities of ammo to get lube off of, I put them in the vibratory tumbler after loading. I've never had a problem. Too, I only do it to remove lube, not to get 'em shiny- that's already been done before loading. Lube removal only takes minutes not hours.

[jimmym40a2]

Larry will a 408ct case fit in that gauge?

[Innovative]

jimmym40a2,

Yes . . . . it works on the 408 Cheytac (but not the 50 BMG). It can measure back from the shoulder to compare your handloads to a fireformed case. (That dislays your chamber clearance.) It can also measure back from the bullet ogive.

- Innovative

[Timberwolf]

Add to this mix of answers, semi auto's may require a Small Base die, so that the round will chamber properly.

Lee Collet Dies are excellent for neck sizing only.

FWIW I Small Base size all my brass for bolt action rifles. I never have a chambering problem, and it hasn't affected the accuracy either but YMMV.

[jmorris]

.2gr with a load of 3.6gr of Bullseye.

That's too much variance for that powder in a Dillon measure. What scale are you using? Do you have any air drafts? Try weighing something about the same weight over and over to see if the scale is repeatable. A small primer will be a bit under 3.6 gr and a large a bit over but should give you an idea of what could be wrong.

[muta4warrior]

My 550B does mostly within .004" on 9mm but on a few rounds it goes out to .008". I called Dillon to ask them about it and they said that wasn't catastrophic but I should be able to get that tightened up by opening the bell and tightening the shell plate. I'll give that a try whenever I do 9mm next. The powder charge for 9mm varies around .2gr with a load of 3.6gr of Bullseye. I tried it with 44 Mag and it was much worse. So for 44 Mag I measure each individually.

I'm glad to hear others use the 550B and are satisfied. I was afraid I had a crappy reloader. What I don't quite understand with loading .223 on the Dillon 550B is the order of case prep and how it goes through the stages. Let me run down how I think the process goes on the 550B and you tell me how wrong I am. Let's assume I'm using fired brass I got from someone else. It will be used in an autoloader.
1. Tumble to clean.
2. Put brass into stage 1 and lube the neck.
3. Pull down on the press handle to deprime and FL resize.
4. Remove the brass before pushing the handle forward to prime it.
5. Throw it in the tumbler again for 30 minutes to remove lube.
6. Swage primer pocket if necessary.
7. Trim to length.
8. Chamfer neck inside and out.
9. Put brass back into stage 1 and only push forward to prime it.
10. Move to stage 2 and load the powder charge.
11. Move to stage 3 and seat the bullet.
12. Move to stage 4 and crimp.

Alright, how wrong am I?

I use a XL650... I run 2 tool heads for loading rifle. In the first toolhead, at station #1, I have the Dillon sizer/deprime die backed out just far enough to just deprime the brass (I used a double nut to keep my height). In the #4 station I run the Dillon trimmer/sizer then into the tumbler for about 20-30 min to polish it all up and remove the bit of a burr from trimming. The second toolhead, I pull the Dillon sizer/deprime die from the firt toolhead (that was the reason for the double nut on the die) and place it into station #1. Now it will knock out any left over corn cob in the flash hole and expand the neck to the proper dia. I run the rest as normal, for semi/full auto/ bolt gun ammo with canlure I don't even waste my time chamfering the neck, the Dillon crimp die will smooth out what is left over that the tumbler missed. For the bolt gun ammo with no canlure I will finish the neck with a lite chamfer and no crimp, just neck tension. I have been loading this way for 10+ years and wouldn't load any other way

[Mongo]

good discussion in this thread.

[kalikraven]

muta4warrior
Why dont you just get a universal deprime die and use that in your first set. That's what I do.

[muta4warrior]

muta4warrior
Why dont you just get a universal deprime die and use that in your first set. That's what I do.

I had a RCBS universal depriming die, hated it... The Dillon die has a stronger decapping pin plus it will also straighten up the case mouth a bit more before going through the size/trim die.

[Derf]

1. Tumble to clean.
2. Put brass into stage 1 and lube the neck.
3. Pull down on the press handle to deprime and FL resize.
4. Remove the brass before pushing the handle forward to prime it.
5. Throw it in the tumbler again for 30 minutes to remove lube.
6. Swage primer pocket if necessary.
7. Trim to length.
8. Chamfer neck inside and out.
9. Put brass back into stage 1 and only push forward to prime it.
10. Move to stage 2 and load the powder charge.
11. Move to stage 3 and seat the bullet.
12. Move to stage 4 and crimp.

This is pretty much what i do. I load with a Lee Pro 1000. So far i have about 8k rounds through it and no major complaints. Just keep the primer tray full and your good. Im loading for my AR and 4 other friends, so i make sure i FL size and then inspect/trim/clean/deburr since they are going into 5 different chambers. I have a separate 3-hole turret just for the sizer die.

tumble
lube
re-size
inspect/trim/clean/deburr
prime, charge, seat
crimp separately on a single stage

after the fact, i wish i would have bought a 5 station and have the crimp die set up on it then be done with one less handling of the rounds. Plus i could have loaded '06 for the Garand.
Or just spent the money on a Dillion and been done. Oh well, there is always later.

[SSwanner]

to the OP. i have noticed that bullseye powder does not measure very accurately in my powder thrower. (its a cheap Lee, all i could find. saving my coin for a 550B progressive) its all over the place, no matter how you adjust it. i filled her up with some 231 & its VERY accurate. i may have 1 out of 15 that is .1g +- and the rest are on the money.

i do know that my dad has 2 550B's (1 for pistol only, 1 for rifle) and he has not had any problems with the powder charge & he has loaded lots of bullseye in it. i can't remember what broke or was not right with one press one time but a simple call to dillon had him parts in the mail and loading again. great customer service.