Help me build my first .223 sub load please!

[jamesrm]

I am new to reloading for the rifle, and followed the recommendations on what to get here, I have the Lee press kit, all the trimmings recommended, and the Redding 3 die set.

I have a Novenske SBR 12.5 in, 1:7 twist.

What is the heaviest bullet I can push through that? What kind of powder should I use and any idea about the charge I should start with?

I have the Lee book on the way, but if anyone wanted to take the time to run down the basic process, I would be appreciative.

Thanks!

[the_accuser]

The ones I loaded were straight from Hodgdon's Reloading site, http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp, Hornday 55gr FMJ with 4.0gr of Trailboss.

Accurate Powder used to list a few loads on their website but I haven't seem them lately. Hornady 55gr FMJ with 3.5gr of their S1250 powder and Hornady 75gr HPBT with 4.5gr S1250.

Jason

[jamesrm]

Cool. Maybe you can come to my place in Hendersonville sometime when I get the stuff in and crank out some rounds with me.

[the_accuser]

Cool. Maybe you can come to my place in Hendersonville sometime when I get the stuff in and crank out some rounds with me.

Sure thing, I'm getting ready to crank out some rounds in a few minutes. Hit me up when your ready.

Jason

[-k-]

You are not expecting a subsonic load that cycles the action are you?

[jamesrm]

You mean your upper won't do that??? That is the whole reason I bought it!!!!!!




Kidding, of course



I will probably work on a 300 blackout at some point, but I know that the sub load will not cycle it. I have a lightning link so I will either be using the switch block in suppressed auto fire mode for sonic rounds or in the gas off position for my subs.

The upper is outstanding, as I told Sherri, the works man ship is great and I was impressed with the packing as well.

[-k-]

What are you going to be using the subs for? If it's just for quiet shooting I'd load cheaper bullets in the 50gr to 60gr range rather than more expensive heavy match bullets. The main reason heavy bullets are used in subsonic loads is to try to get enough energy to cycle the action.

[jamesrm]

Mainly quiet shooting, but I was thinking about getting a heavier 80-90 g bullet for testing as well that would have more impact for short range varmint hunting.

[JohnInNH]

Bullet stability may be an issue even with a 1:7 twist... The RPM at 1050 is a lot less than at 2800 fps.

http://kwk.us/twist.html

Check it out!

.8" long is about all a 1:7 twist at 1050 fps can stabilize.

[AMProducts]

John's called it, this probably won't perform very well with any bullet much longer than standard M193 bullets.

Also, I don't recommend trailboss for this purpose, hodgdon lists two other loads for this cartridge:

55 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ Hodgdon Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP

Of these I would suggest titegroup, it's a great powder when doing very light loads.

However, since you have a very short barrel, you will actually be loading hotter than this, as this load data is intended for 20" barrels.

I plugged a few options into quickload, using a 55gr FMJ (M193 bullet) IMR4227 looked like it might be promising. 8-10grs should be in the 1050-1200FPS range with a chamber pressure of about 10KPSI, since you're doing this suppressed, you may even be able get it to cycle with the can acting as a booster.

Note: THESE ARE EXPERIMENTAL LOADS AND SHOULD BE APPROACHED WITH EXTREME CAUTION I HIGHLY RECOMMEND DOING SOME TEST FIRING WITHOUT THE CAN TO CHECK FOR BULLET STABILITY BEFORE PUTTING THE CAN ON, AS INSTABILITY CAN CAUSE A BAFFLE STRIKE.

End disclaimer. Good luck!

[AMProducts]

Ok, so I figured I would get some actual data today. I test fired both of the quickload generated loads I talked about this morning, I didn't get a reading with 8.0grs of IMR4227, however it was definitely supersonic, probably about 1400FPS, 10gr of IMR4227 gave me 1613fps. This was all from a 16" barrel. I used a rifle rather than the transducer fixture since I was mostly testing for function, and none of them cycled.

I did test the 4.0grs of TiteGroup, here's the results:

Load Name 223-55-SS Date 29/7/11
Gun DPMS 16" Cartridge .223 Remington
Bullet FMJ-BT (M193) Weight 55gr
Powder TiteGroup Weight 4.0
Case Mix Primer CCI #400
OAL 2.240"
Average Velocity (FPS) 1291.2 Standard Dev 17.5
Chronograph Test Results (ft/sec):
1280 1274 1307 1282 1313
Notes: Did not cycle

This was actually a rather frighteningly accurate load, even though I was using junk IMI/Berrys 55gr FMJ, it shot a ragged clover from the test fixture at 50 yards. My barrel is a 1:9 twist for reference. So I think you should be safe using this. The shorter barrel on yours should compensate and give you a subsonic load. Even at the velocities I was pushing it was not loud, even though it's a concrete box we get to shoot in.

The company Type 10/02 SOT goes into effect on monday. Maybe later in the week if I catch up some other work, I'll look into making a test can to check for baffle strikes.

[the_accuser]

AMProducts,

Why should Clay's or Titegroup be choosen over Trailboss? Thanks for the input you've provided.

Jason

[AMProducts]

Trailboss is a bulky progressive burning powder that was designed for loading low velocity cowboy ammo. In comparison to other commercial pistol powders, it is useless for loading standard pistol ammo. Also, I've found it to be much less consistent than other pistol powders. I think clays will work in this load, but I don't think it would work as well as titegroup. Titegroup is an excellent powder for doing reduced charges, it is very insensitive to having high case volumes. I found this when loading .45 Colt, a charge of as low as 5 grains will still have a SD of about 10FPS.

Of the test data I posted, this was based on the hodgdon data and quickload. I think there are many more loads using fast and medium burning pistol powders out there that will produce good quality subsonic ammo. I'm going to continue doing testing, next week I've got some 69gr SMK's to try out with the same load.

[the_accuser]

Trailboss is a bulky progressive burning powder that was designed for loading low velocity cowboy ammo. In comparison to other commercial pistol powders, it is useless for loading standard pistol ammo. Also, I've found it to be much less consistent than other pistol powders. I think clays will work in this load, but I don't think it would work as well as titegroup. Titegroup is an excellent powder for doing reduced charges, it is very insensitive to having high case volumes. I found this when loading .45 Colt, a charge of as low as 5 grains will still have a SD of about 10FPS.

Of the test data I posted, this was based on the hodgdon data and quickload. I think there are many more loads using fast and medium burning pistol powders out there that will produce good quality subsonic ammo. I'm going to continue doing testing, next week I've got some 69gr SMK's to try out with the same load.

Thanks AMProducts, I'm not as familiar with pistol powders. I appreciate the feedback. I will look at switching over to Titegroup. I look forward to your tests with the 69gr SMKs.

Have you ever tired Vihtavuori N310 for 223 sub loads? I really like their rifle powders and was thinking about trying N310 for loading 223 subsonics.

Jason

[AMProducts]

I usually try to stay away from VV powders, mostly because I buy all my powder in bulk. The AM in my name stands for Ammunition Manufacturing, so unless I can buy it by the drum I tend to get disinterested. Titegroup is kinda my go-to pistol powder lately after I got away from clays; titegroup loads .45colt, .38spl, 9mm, 45acp, 40S&W, 32ACP, etc.

I didn't get time to test any smk's today, ended up spending most of the day working on some blank loads.

[Golf_1911]

How about using Hornady 55gr V-Max instead of Hornady 55gr FMJ?


Will they give the same result?

[AMProducts]

Unless you're switching over to a lead free, 55gr is 55gr is 55gr, the only difference when you switch over to solid copper (barnes X, TSX, nostler etc) are the bullets have a different specific gravity, which both affects the rotational stability of the projectile, as well as the bullets tend to be longer (for the same bore diameter) than the traditional lead cored bullets.

I know I'm getting back to this post late, but we had a customer request to develop some lower velocity rounds that still cycled in M4's. The lowest velocity we could push that would still give us reliable cycling was about 2200FPS, this was with a frangible bullet. However, this load was so close to not cycling it would only work reliably in carbine length gas system M4's. It worked in both 14.5" and 16" guns, but it had to be the short gas system. It would not cycle most of the piston guns we tried even with the gas port set to the biggest setting available. Back when ruger was working on the SR-15 we had some contact with them, and they were going to offer a still wider setting on the SR-15, not sure if they did or not as we have not tested it in a new gun.

I would surmise the data I posted would be safe to use with a 62gr SS109 bullet, and you could probably even use a sierra 69gr SMK. The only question in my mind is what the muzzle velocity would be.

[JohnInNH]

Not to be an ass...

But not so.. A bullet change can cause a known safe load to blow primers with a different bullet.

Factors:

Amount of baring surface in contact to the bore. (bullet shape)

Differences in Jacket material, and thickness

How much case capacity is used when seated.

But to your point similar bullets of the same weight are not a problem.. Just be careful when changing form a flat base to a boat tail .. or a partition from a regular jacket design

[Wahoo95]

For a while lot less hassle you could just install a CMMG conversion kit and run Aguila 60gr SSS........

[txgunner00]

For a while lot less hassle you could just install a CMMG conversion kit and run Aguila 60gr SSS........

I do both. If I'm just plinking or only shooting small varmints then I'll use the conversion & SSS. Sometimes I want the option of quickly switching from suppressed full power .223 to suppressed sub-sonic. This is were these loads come in.

I load a 70 grain Speer spire point because it's the heaviest flat based, reasonably priced bullet I can find. The flat base shortens the overall length of the bullet thus increasing it's stability at slower speeds.

I can't remember my charge buy I'm using Trailboss.

[MuayThaiJJ]

Ok, so I figured I would get some actual data today. I test fired both of the quickload generated loads I talked about this morning, I didn't get a reading with 8.0grs of IMR4227, however it was definitely supersonic, probably about 1400FPS, 10gr of IMR4227 gave me 1613fps. This was all from a 16" barrel. I used a rifle rather than the transducer fixture since I was mostly testing for function, and none of them cycled.

I did test the 4.0grs of TiteGroup, here's the results:

Load Name 223-55-SS Date 29/7/11
Gun DPMS 16" Cartridge .223 Remington
Bullet FMJ-BT (M193) Weight 55gr
Powder TiteGroup Weight 4.0
Case Mix Primer CCI #400
OAL 2.240"
Average Velocity (FPS) 1291.2 Standard Dev 17.5
Chronograph Test Results (ft/sec):
1280 1274 1307 1282 1313
Notes: Did not cycle

This was actually a rather frighteningly accurate load, even though I was using junk IMI/Berrys 55gr FMJ, it shot a ragged clover from the test fixture at 50 yards. My barrel is a 1:9 twist for reference. So I think you should be safe using this. The shorter barrel on yours should compensate and give you a subsonic load. Even at the velocities I was pushing it was not loud, even though it's a concrete box we get to shoot in.

The company Type 10/02 SOT goes into effect on monday. Maybe later in the week if I catch up some other work, I'll look into making a test can to check for baffle strikes.

Did your 4.0gn of Titegroup reliably fire your FMJ 223? I am using random pulls of 55gr-62gr FMJ bullets and the suggested load of 3.1gn did not function, I had 2 squibs.