308 subsonic loads for 5R

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JohnInNH
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by JohnInNH »

210 gr lead RN with gas Check 308 Win Winchester Brass Win Large Rifle Primer. 9.1 gr of Trail Boss= hi 1026 low 1005 SD=8 ES 23

I use TrailBoss ONLY for subs in my 308. The other powders do not do as well.

They ARE stable. Cast lead bullets are a good choice. Most are designed to fly well at low FPS. They are usually short for the weight.

Tale a look at some of the online cast bullet sellers. I swear by COPPER gas Checks and have had HORRID luck with aluminum ones. The AL ones come off. I have been hit in the face with them as they bounce off my Chronograph sky screens. They are all over the place. I returned all the AL gas checked bullets I bought as they were advertized as copper. "They are just as good" = absolute BS IMHO (I have been shooting lead gas checked since 1970) for the minor price difference is it not worth it.

at 1050 you really don't need them if the alloy is correct so a plain base would be OK. Some of my favorite subsonic loads are cast lead.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

Well thanks for the info but we are trying to find a CLEAN tactical load for subsonic and I think lead wile a alternative choice for "plinking" is good it won't fit my shooting requirements. Plus if the gas checks can come off what stops them from coming off in a critical moment in the suppressor? We are shooting 5R barrels also I am not sure the outcome with lead or gas-checks.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

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M40A1308M wrote:Well thanks for the info but we are trying to find a CLEAN tactical load for subsonic and I think lead wile a alternative choice for "plinking" is good it won't fit my shooting requirements. Plus if the gas checks can come off what stops them from coming off in a critical moment in the suppressor? We are shooting 5R barrels also I am not sure the outcome with lead or gas-checks.

I have never had a copper GC come off. I use the Hornady crimp on GC. Do not know what your application is..

Replace with a 170 gr Hornady 30-30 Jacketed soft point flat base bullet and reduce a few tenths. But start at 9.1 gr

I have had good luck with the 30-30 bullets. very stable in the 1:11.25 .. My 5R is 22" fyi

I have had BAD luck with the Hornady 220 RN flat base. with instability even in a 1:8 twist!

My cast bullets are more accurate, hit harder, and shoot very clean (bore). Only thing is the lube fouling in the silencer but I use a Mystic for my subsonic loads not my sealed AAC .30 can. The bullet lube makes it easier to take apart and helps prevent lead from sticking to the baffles. Using a GC almost eliminates the lead fouling and is why I use them even at these low speeds.

On soft targets my 210 gr cast subsonic load out performs the jacketed bullet. A flat nose can be had which will transfer more energy faster, and cut a clean hole for blood trail.

If you are stuck with a sealed can go with the 30-30 bullets. 170 works. May find a 180. I would limit my choice at a 180 flat point or RN with a flat base.

The 170's do shoot well. They penetrate a LONG way.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ick »

I don't reload... so looking for something to purchase. Checked out ammoman and cheaperthandirt and could only find 175 grain HV.

Boy ammunition selection online is not easy. No wonder you guys make your own... especially with the prices.


Midway USA has Lapua Subsonic Ammunition 308 Winchester 200 Grain Full Metal Jacket
Box of 20 $54.99 = $2.75 each round. Cha ching!
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/998404 ... g-_-998404

CorBon Performance Match Subsonic 308 Win 185Gr Full Metal Jacket 20 500 PM308S185
Box of 20 $31.99 = $1.60 each
http://www.gagetactical.com/corbon-perf ... 33797.html

Setpoint Ammunition 308 Subsonic Scout
20/box @ $34.99 = $1.75 each
http://www.impactguns.com/setpoint-ammu ... scout.aspx
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

STILL NO F'N VV POWDER HERE !!!!!!! They said it will be another week.

I see you posted some ammo I have tried it all some you haven't even posted. Lapua is one of the best due to they designed a bullet for subsonic use. SBR ammo has some that is way more expensive that is good too. But as far as it goes EBR ammo and Lapua do awesome for factory stuff. But you will always achieve cheaper better results with reloading. I bought 2000 200gr subsonic Lapua bullets to reload with and am looking for there load that they use in there ammo due to they are over 2$ round. But I like the 180 gr RN also.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ick »

I ordered the setpoint.... even though it felt a bit like I was ordering "Extreme Shock" or "zombie" ammo for some reason....

We shall see how it goes.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

I think you won't be disappointed but you would be happier at longer range with the Lapua, but who shoots subsonic that far anyway. I still have 100 rounds of the EBR expanding subsonic just encase I have to take a animal or something down with no noise. :roll: the other ammo will do but that expands at subsonic velocity to over a 45 cal.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

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M40A1308M wrote:I think you won't be disappointed but you would be happier at longer range with the Lapua, but who shoots subsonic that far anyway. I still have 100 rounds of the EBR expanding subsonic just encase I have to take a animal or something down with no noise. :roll: the other ammo will do but that expands at subsonic velocity to over a 45 cal.

In the pictures of the bullets it looks like a 220 with 40 gr of the lead softpoint removed in a drill press. It may have some counter bore or deep V shape on the drill point to help with even expansion.

Looks pretty easy to make... Buy a box bull one and measure to see what the parent projectile is. A drill press and a jig you should be able to convert 100 $26 a box Hornady 220 RN into a vicious expanding projectile.

http://www.ebr-inc.net/images/subsonic/ ... 62_PBS.jpg
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

Well, NO they are not a simple drill job all though they look like that in that picture. The bullet design is really cool and works very well. It produces a razor blade effect and is very consistent in its expansion. Simply drilling out a soft point won't get you these results but you can try to see my point.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

I notice some here think that subsonic precision rifle shooting should be easy or simple to make the ammo. Let me tell you it is not some of the bullets are specially designed to go subsonic speeds and stabilize in flight to reload for this is critical in what I and allot of others are doing here. To simply say just load to under 1080fps with what ever will get you nothing but hurt or dead or at least your equipment damaged possibly. To drill a hole in the end of a soft point bullet if done improperly could have detrimental effect on stability and damage your gun or suppressor. If you load a round improperly with the wrong powder you could have a explosion.

I should have stated the safety warning before the start of our subject but now here it is. So as it continues READER BEWARE!!!!
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

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M40A1308M wrote:I notice some here think that subsonic precision rifle shooting should be easy or simple to make the ammo. Let me tell you it is not some of the bullets are specially designed to go subsonic speeds and stabilize in flight to reload for this is critical in what I and allot of others are doing here. To simply say just load to under 1080fps with what ever will get you nothing but hurt or dead or at least your equipment damaged possibly. To drill a hole in the end of a soft point bullet if done improperly could have detrimental effect on stability and damage your gun or suppressor. If you load a round improperly with the wrong powder you could have a explosion.

I should have stated the safety warning before the start of our subject but now here it is. So as it continues READER BEWARE!!!!

Well Excuse meeeeee!

You work for them?

I have loaded subs for many years. Since 1977. No super secret magic involved. Just read and follow the std precautions.

Why the fear mongering? You can do all that real scary s--t reloading any ammo. Better leave it to the "experts".

"You will put your eye out!" :shock:
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

There was no dis-respect intended. I just had a couple of PM's that made me think about some of the dangers. I didn't say what you were doing was wrong only that it had the potential to do damage if not done properly. You sound as if you have experience with doing things that you spoke of, others may not and damage something and blame you.

I am looking for TACTICAL precision loads NOT cowboy lead kill coyote loads OK get it. I value your input it just is not what I was looking for. I and the OP were trying to duplicate the Lapua subsonic 200gr load at a lower cost or come up with a comparable load for a TACTICAL rifle. At over 2$ a shot i think we can come up with the exact recipe they are using and share that info with all. And I think while your data is piratical for the type of shooting you do it does not fit the bill here and what I do.

So again no DIS-RESPECT
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ick »

Since we have both technical knowledge and experience in the thread........

As you may recall, I ordered the Set Point ($1.75/round) from the above listed site. From what I gather they seem to be claiming that these SS rounds are designed precisely for the Ruger Scout. Thus I assume I can absolutely count on a stable bullet.

Given all of the variables like twist rate, length of barrel, weight of bullet...... do you feel I can assume that these rounds maximize the rifle and caliber to the fullest potential for the Ruger Scout?

Would it be your guess that you could significantly improve results with a different custom load? Perhaps one could improve the round but find the benefits only marginal?

Can I assume that they have NOT taken extra care with things like sealing the powder in the rear of the case to get a more even powder burn?

My experience with "marketing" says that you are buying "hype" in cases like this.... so I guess I am having trouble believing that a round dedicated for my rifle actually has some testing and "engineering" to back up an implied claim in marketing material.

Furthermore does a more expensive round like the "Lapua Subsonic Ammunition 308 Winchester 200 Grain Full Metal Jacket
Box of 20 $54.99 = $2.75 each round" really result in its full potential in, say my Ruger Scout given the barrel length and twist rate vs. some other bolt action rile with different characteristics?

I realize I have asked specific questions to things that would require someone to do testing to adequately answer. I guess I am asking for your nuanced informed opinion and intuition of the ammo in question.

.....sorry if some of that is redundant and has already been answered.....
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

Well to answer some of your questions. You always will be able to get better results loading for yourself because of some simple reasons.
#1 You can gauge where the safe maximum for your rifle is by working the load up little by little big company's can't do this for you they have to middle of the road it for safety reasons.

#2 You can load for your gun and your gun only i know there are thousands of scout's but yours might like 23 grains versus 23.5 of another gun.

#3 You can load for your shooting conditions the factory can't.

#4 You can load the bullet to length you like for the best a curacy out of your gun.

See the factory has to put a round out that everybody must be able to use and work in all sorts of guns with no issue. In some rounds you are buying the HYPE like the zombie rounds from Horiday or some subsonic I have purchased have been nothing more that 180 rn with 10.5 gr of trail boss and they are asking 2$ a round {Local re-loader} with a fancy SNIPERY box.

Now in the case of EBR and LAPUA they have redesigned the bullet to meet the needs of subsonic use and they are using a proprietary powder also I suspect. I don't work for Lapua I just admire there ammo as it is some of the best in the world. I have purchased every .22lr in the world and there stuff is one of the best usually someone will yell Eley ammo right about now, but Lapua is so hard to get they have probably never tried there stuff.

But I was with the original poster trying to with some help for our over seas contacts trying to figure and test and find out what is making the Lapua subsonic work so well. If we could get that formula then it would be less of a strain to find ammo that works for the type of rifles we are shooting.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

Now as far as some of your questions that pertain to the SCOUT I do not have one and I would not be able to get those answers you seek. But if you start reloading for the rifle keep all the data because some one somewhere will want to know.

But if you can list rate of twist and barrel length that would be helpful.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ncorry »

NOTE TO THE 5R GUYS- please note that the loads and reloads below were used for and tested in a Savage 10FP with a 1:10 twist. Also, there's some good info in the reloading bin at texasboars.com. I shouldn't even be telling anyone else about the HSM subs. THey're in short supply.

Reloading reliable subsonic 308 has been my nemesis.

At one point 2 years ago, I believe I had tried every commecially available subsonic 308 offering. The best in terms of accuracy and repeateable speed was Lapua's 200 grain factory loads. At $50/ box of 20, was getting old quick. The Lapua 200 grain bullet is a special design for subsonic loads. It is FMJ, but is designed to stabilize out of a 1:10 twist. I found that it did out of my 16 inch Savage 10FP. Made to cartwheel once it hits target. I found that it did. Lapua sells this bullet to reloaders too.

Second on the list is The Hunting Shack's subsonic 175 grain moly coated bullets. At $18/ box, they don't give up much, accuracy wise, to the Lapuas. At 100 yards out of a lead sled, they have and continue to give me a 5 shot group of less than 1.1 center to center, including the cold bore shot.

The others- Corbon, DRT, EBR, TTI, etc., all blew goats out of my rifle. Either 30% spread in speed, get stuck in barrel, or shooting 10+ MOA at 100 yards. Save your money on these would be my (ever so humble) advice.

Outlaw State Bullets makes specialized bullets for subsonic applications. The only one I've recovered mushroomed from .311 to .69 at somewhere near 1050 fps. Went through a 120lb doe's rib, spine, and most of second rib before stopping. THey shoot well.

For reloading subsonic, I never really found a powder I was in love with. Trailboss I had to cram and stuff 13 or 13.5 to get the 200 grain Lapua bullet up to 1020 fps. Load was very compressed. If you haven't reloaded with Trailboss before, the flake is a donut and is very fluffy. IMR SR4759 (14.5 -15), Clays (8.5), Titegroup (9.0) under the 200 grain Lapua were all looking promising before I found out that I could buy good factory subsonics from Hunting SHack for $18/ box.

Your mileage may vary, use any and all information contained in this post at your own risk, reloading is a dangerous hobby, etc.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

At last some good info on a new factory ammo I have not tried.

The only thing I do have to say is that ALL my suppressed tactical rifles are 18" or under if yours is longer you may have some trouble with sticking a bullet. Lard or lube will help but it's messy.

Thanks for the info.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by johndoe3 »

M40A1308M, since you took a factory 200gr subsonic 308 cartridge apart, was the powder type, flake, ball or stick powder? How much case fill did the 200gr factory load have (estimate)?
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ncorry »

I've taken one of the Lapua factory subs apart too. As for weight, it was in the 11.5 ballpark, but I'm going just from memory. As for type- I may be crazy, but it sure looked like two different types. Different sized flakes. I'm looking forward to M40A to chiming in here. As I said, I may be crazy.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

No ncory is correct. That's why I posted PROPRIETARY powder. But I was told by Lapua it is a form of Vit powder. Just what one we will see what commercial powder will get the closest AS SOON AS I GET SOME!!!!! I have been waiting on no less than 5 different types of Vit powder now for almost a month. It is very hard to come by here. And I am still waiting the local shop that I get it at had a problem this weekend and is not answering the phone. I guess they had a machine gun shoot that did not go so well{no one was hurt or killed} but fro some reason they haven't answered the phone.

But, yes I removed the bullet and measured the powder and it was around 11.45675 buy my scale :roll: It was pistol powder in resemblance but some of the granules were different size. And here is something you probably didn't notice but the primer pocket was NOT reamed out as other subsonic re loaders have indicated you must do to achieve a complete powder burn.

So as soon the powder arrives I can get started.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ncorry »

Glad I'm not insane and the old memory still works. M40A1308M- what state are you in?
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

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In Indiana
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ick »

My Setpoint SS just came. I doubt I will get to try it for a few days.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by ick »

Went to the range with the Setpoint SS in my Ruger scout. Sounded like a loud paintball gun. It was pretty sweet. 60ºF, humidity ~40%. No long range accuracy since i only had irons and I cannot shoot over 50 feet without an optic.


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Last edited by ick on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 308 subsonic loads for 5R

Post by M40A1308M »

What can where you using?
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