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 Post subject: AK or SKS for SHTF
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:00 am 
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Silent Operator

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I would like some input on this. If you had to pick between an AK and a SKS which would it be? I've got an SKS with a T6 stock that is probably the most reliable gun I've ever owned. On the other hand the AK reliably takes larger mags and is a little shorter. I've heard the SKS is a little more accurate because of it's length.
I know most of you will probably say just go get a AR. Well if I went out and spent $1000 on a gun right now the S would really HTF at home. i would really like your $.02. Or is there a better alternative in the same price range?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:09 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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As much as I like my SKS, I would say go for an AK. More importantly, a GOOD AK. Larger magazine, MUCH easier to mount opics, and much more aftermarket stuff.

I'm sure others will have feedback as to the best AK. Personaly I would get a VEPR or a Saiga. The Siagas need to be converted to pistol grip magazines where the VEPRs come ready to go.

One thing I will recommend, 20 round magazines. The 30's are too long to shoot prone easily, the 20's are a good compromise.


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 Post subject: Re: AK or SKS for SHTF
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:10 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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texdoug1 wrote:
I would like some input on this. If you had to pick between an AK and a SKS which would it be? ...
Well if I went out and spent $1000 on a gun right now the S would really HTF at home. i would really like your $.02. Or is there a better alternative in the same price range?


SKS - $149 good Yugo's from J&G
Romanian AK-47 WASR-UF with underfolding stock. $399.95 J&G
Olympic A1 AR15 $599 Atlantic arms...

of these inexpensive guns I'd bet the SKS would give you most bang for the buck - you can buy 4 for cost of 1 AR - Does that mean I would prefer it over the AR nope but I did buy one - I'll be getting an AK back in the safe at some point I guess just find AR better for accurate shooting and SKS just as much fun for plinking.

Now if I could only find cheap ammo again :?

While the AK does offer larger magazine capacity in real SHTF - not hoards of Zombies but need to feed the family and defend I don't think the SKS is at much of a disadvantage.

Best bang for the buck - Mosin-Nagant M-44 $69 at J&G with
300 rounds ammo for $48 in a sealed storeage tin :P
This rifle Killed many enemy's and with money spent on ammo you could get really good with iron sights or for bad eyes like mine pick up scout scope and mount!
Image

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Last edited by Artful on Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:23 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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The SKS is cheaper, generally more accurate, has a terrible trigger. I don't like the tilting bolt design of the SKS. I also hate stripper clips, and I hear that a lot of the larger magazines aren't reliable. The gas system is pretty nice. They can't stand up to full-auto fire very well. (if the s--t hits the fan, I dont think I'd care about federal laws anymore)

The AKM has more accessories, more capacity, trigger upgrades are cheap (or free if you're handy with tools). The bolt and bolt carrier are very robust and well designed. Uses removeable magazines which are easier to change than using stripper clips. Does seem to have slightly more felt recoil than the SKS due to the heavier bolt carrier. Fairly easy to convert to full-auto if you have access to typical hand tools and the parts necessary. In their stock form almost nothing can stop them, eccept being run over by a tank.

The AR15 isn't an option because I despise those poorly designed pieces of s--t (the one exception would be an AR with a gas piston).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:37 pm 
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Tag for Artful's kick ass post.

:D

That's one of the coolest old guns.....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:21 pm 
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ArevaloSOCOM wrote:
Tag for Artful's kick ass post.

:D

That's one of the coolest old guns.....


+1 whered you get that thing camoed. It looks great.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Nice moisant

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:16 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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lawless101aa wrote:
+1 whered you get that thing camoed. It looks great.


Duracoated by Hunters Paradise

http://www.huntersparadiseonline.com/du ... ojects.htm

That was actually just a quickie picture from a google search of
"Mosin Nagant M44 scout scope" to look for a picture.
mine isn't camo'd

I don't like the pictures I took of mine.
Image

or

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:07 am 
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Silent But Deadly

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chevrofreak wrote:

The AR15 isn't an option because I despise those poorly designed pieces of s--t (the one exception would be an AR with a gas piston).


Sooo.... Since you despise the AR15, it's not an option for those of us without personal issues against it? Many of us, have a fondness for the rifle, and have had excellent service out of ours. Did Eugene Stoner knock up your sister?

A "good" AK, which in my mind means Arsenal or one of the original Polytech's will run you $700+.

They are actually a fantastic design. What it requires in regular maintenance is easily made up for with it's inherent accuracy over the AK design.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:11 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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My thought on a long term SHTF rifle

What are the criteria for picking a SHTF rifle?

1. Reliable
2. Easy to maintain
3. Reasonably Accurate
4. Cartridge
5. Durability
6. Magazine durability
7. Weight
8. Ammunition availability (post SHTF)
9. Magazine availability (post SHTF)
10. Barter potential?

To me cost should not be a factor though I see it ranked unusually high as a selection point by many people.

So let's evaluate a couple of different guns based on the above.

AK-47 semi variants

1. Reliable

Obviously these are usually very reliable.

2. Easy to maintain

Very easy to maintain with a minimum amount of support gear. 3rd world s--t holes have plenty of AK47s running with almost no care.

3. Reasonably Accurate

Well, I have seen good and bad in this area for AK's. The sights are not great so shooting them might not be as accurate. Optics are limited due to shitty mounts.

4. Cartridge

Able to take almost all game in the cont. US reliably if limited to 200 yrds.

5. Durability

The brick s--t house of semi auto guns.

6. Magazine durability

The brick s--t house of magazines.

7. Weight

Not real heavy but not a light gun either. Ammo load makes for a lot of weight and empty mags are even heavy.

8. Ammunition availability (post SHTF)

Getting better but not the most common ammunition. Pretty much stuck with what you have on hand at the beginning of SHTF with maybe some scrounging for resupply. US military does not use the round but an invading military (or UN) might.

9. Magazine availability (post SHTF)

Pretty much the same as the ammunition supply.

10. Barter potential?

Well you might have to barter a spare gun away for something you need. The AK most likely will barter very well given its legendary status. Roving gangs of hood rats would be eager to acquire one (might not be a good thing)

AR15 semi variants


1. Reliable

Fairly reliable, not at the top of the list but not far down it either.

2. Easy to maintain

Fairly easy to maintain but you do need more support equipment including a good supply of lubricant and cleaning supplies.

3. Reasonably Accurate

Majority are very accurate, good sights and easy optics mounting on them.

4. Cartridge

Small game no problem but larger game will require a better marksman. Large ammo load out can be carried due to cartridge weight.

5. Durability

Fairly durable as long as you don't use it for butt stroking and bashing doors in. Trigger mechanism simple and rugged, few parts to wear out except extractor spring.

6. Magazine durability

There is good and bad here. The Aluminum mags can be considered fairly fragile but good steel mags are available. Mags are much lighter than many others out there.

7. Weight

One of the lightest semi auto guns around (until you load it up with rails and s--t).

8. Ammunition availability (post SHTF)

Common ammo, can be found almost any ammo supply stores and the military uses the round. NATO is also a user so any foreign aid most likely will have 5.56

9. Magazine availability (post SHTF)

Same as ammo. Fairly common and many other NATO militarizes use the same mag or an equivalent.

10. Barter potential?

Pretty good since most every one is familiar with what it is and knows that ammo can be had. Ex-military trained will most likely seek them out and want them.

SKS variants


1. Reliable

As long as is is not a beater then most likely it will be reliable.

2. Easy to maintain

Fairly easy like the AK.

3. Reasonably Accurate

Most likely a bit better than most AK but not a steller performer. Optics mounts suck as with AK.

4. Cartridge

See AK-47

5. Durability

I would not rate the SKS as high as the AK or AR. I have seen too many trigger groups fail in these but they are fairly good as most military guns will be.

6. Magazine durability

No mag so no rating.

7. Weight

See AK - nearly the same except for magazine weight.

8. Ammunition availability (post SHTF)

See AK

9. Magazine availability (post SHTF)

No mag. but stripper clip availability will be non-existent.

10. Barter potential?

Probably lower, less familiar to the general non-gun owning public.

10/22 variants


1. Reliable

Fairly reliable as a 22 but compared to center fire guns I would not rank it high.

2. Easy to maintain

Much harder than military guns to clean and strip.

3. Reasonably Accurate

Good for 100 yrds.

4. Cartridge

Well good for putting small game on the table but not much more than that. Gun shot will not travel as far esp. with a suppressor.

5. Durability

Fairly good for its intended roll.

6. Magazine durability

Poor due to how dirty the 22LR is. Not an easy mag to clean.

7. Weight

Fairly light with light ammo.

8. Ammunition availability (post SHTF)

Most available ammo but the least tollerant of poor storage conditions.

9. Magazine availability (post SHTF)

Very common but not a military issued item.

10. Barter potential?

For someone that has nothing, it would be a something, most likely people that have one of the major caliber rifles will like to have a 22LR just for ammo availability and small game hunting.


Getting late, add you own to the list.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:17 am 
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Yours is also a great looking rifle artful. I think I may just have found my next project. Too bad the ammo is corossive. Is any of it not?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:03 am 
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lawless101aa wrote:
Yours is also a great looking rifle artful. I think I may just have found my next project. Too bad the ammo is corossive. Is any of it not?


Only the surplus ammo is corrosive - new S&B production isn't.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php ... cts_id/540
Quote:
7.62x54R S&B FMJ, 20 rd boxes. [5-109b]
Price: $14.50 quantity price 5+ $12.99
180gr FMJ, made in Czech Republic, brass case, boxer primer, non-corrosive.This product was added to our catalog on Friday February 10, 2006.


Easy way to handle the corrosive salts of surplus (which is much cheaper) is take take a bottle of Windex and spray inside the barrel after done shooting. Keeps rust away until you do your regular cleaning when you get back.
When checking for a new project rifle check the bores as some of the surplus guns have had a rough life - my rifle has a counter bored muzzle where some must have gotten to wild when cleaning it but it shoot good :P
I had to replace the barrel of my Korean reimport Garand as the bore was too far gone on that one.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:25 pm 
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chevrofreak wrote:

The AR15 isn't an option because I despise those poorly designed pieces of s--t (the one exception would be an AR with a gas piston).


Have you ever even owned an AR15, Because I only expect this from people who have never owned one and are trying to be a badass or they just cant afford one. The AR system is awesome, you sound like you read a few books, or watched a tv show about the early AR15 and based your opinions on it. Ive been shooting AR's for probably 6 years now and not one of my AR's has jammed as many times as my pos WASR guns. What about it is a poorly designed piece of s--t? I have a hard time finding it. Besides they must have something right since its been our weapon of choice for over 40 years now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:31 pm 
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Agreed, Lawless.

I can have virtually ANY small arm I want, and my SHTF gun is a 10.5" M16 with M4-2007. Regular gas system, no problems here !

I've thought about getting some type of 7.62 x 39 in case the SHTF, in case I would come across some ammo, I'd have a gun to fire it. Probably an SKS, cause I don't have to buy mags, etc. minimal investment. For now, the plan is to take one from someone else if it comes to that. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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AK all the way. I have many, and love them all. I have had very good luck with accuracy, but all of mine have been custom built by a local builder who really knows his s--t. If I've ever had a problem he can fix it like nothing, and tune any of my feed ramps, better triggers, etc.......

Ak's with 30rd mags and 75 rd drums are what I feel would be required in a real SHTF senario, but conditions vary greatly. SKS is fine for shooting a deer, but not worth s--t in a real fire fight.

I'd rather have a 7.62 any day over .223. I've seen what 5.56 vs 7.62 does to mason bricks, trees, rocks, and kevlar. .223 doesn't have 1/3 of the woop a good 7.62x39 has. I also know a guy who got his whole leg shattered in 5 places from one AK round, he's lucky he can walk, let alone talk. 7.62x51 is obviously even more powerful and can whistle through 4" bullet proof glass like butter. I've got a bunch of AP steel tungsten good s--t for my AK's if the S really HTF.

I hate to bash .223, but just because the military uses it doesn't mean s--t to me. Lets get real, the military wants a round to wound, not kill. That's not what I'm looking for, but I did just buy an sick bulgarian Arsenal side folder in .223 just incase it's the only ammo around and I'm out of 7.62 ammo, which would take a really long time considering my stock pile.

I'd probably buy an AR with the new AK gas blow back system they're using now on a couple of models, but I'd get a 300 whisper upper. The only AR I really like is the AR10.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:54 pm 
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Artful.

How did you get that pic rail on your rifle>?

:?:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:01 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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ArevaloSOCOM wrote:
Artful.

How did you get that pic rail on your rifle>?

:?:


bought it...

www.combathunting.com


edit for Davo5o

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Last edited by Artful on Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:01 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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Bought What??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:51 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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An AK could "help" you get any other rifle you'd want/need. It's a good starting point. I love my Yugo's.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:18 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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lawless101aa wrote:
chevrofreak wrote:

The AR15 isn't an option because I despise those poorly designed pieces of s--t (the one exception would be an AR with a gas piston).


Have you ever even owned an AR15, Because I only expect this from people who have never owned one and are trying to be a badass or they just cant afford one. The AR system is awesome, you sound like you read a few books, or watched a tv show about the early AR15 and based your opinions on it. Ive been shooting AR's for probably 6 years now and not one of my AR's has jammed as many times as my pos WASR guns. What about it is a poorly designed piece of s--t? I have a hard time finding it. Besides they must have something right since its been our weapon of choice for over 40 years now.


I have absolutely no interest in owning one. I'm a very mechanicaly inclined person, and I have studied both the AR15 and AK47 designs. There is no way in hell I would consider the direct gas defecation system of the AR15 to be a good design.

What disadvantages does a gas piston upper have? Weight? That's the only one I can think of. An extra pound of weight will turn a gun that needs to be cleaned thoroughly after just a thousand or so rounds int a gun that could conceivably run tens of thousands of rounds without a major cleaning. While I would never let my gun go that long without cleaning, I like to know that it is capable of doing so. Cleaning will be easier with a gas piston design as well since the powder wont be caked on and hardened to everything in the upper receiver.

And I am not one bit surprised your WASR jams. It is the very bottom of the barrel as far as AK's go. My chinese made Norinco has been flawless, except for one failure to fire while bumpfiring it because the hammer followed the bolt home.

Just because the military uses something does not mean it is the best. The sooner you understand that the better off you'll be. Atleast times are changing and newer better guns are being fielded (albeit in limited numbers at this time) such as the HK 416, FN SCAR, etc.

I find very few faults with the lower receiver of the AR15. Though, I am not fond of the recoil spring/buffer tube design and would prefer a more traditional spring. My hatred for the design comes from the upper receiver. The gas system is a piss poor design, I don't like the barrel extension or the high number of locking lugs on the bolt. Designs that use an AK type 2 or 3 lug bolt are just as accurate (SIG 55x) and easier to clean.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:07 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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+100

Chevrofreak, your spot on man. What do you use on the job??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:05 pm 
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No I have figured out that not everything the military uses is the best. In fact I never said anything close to it. I think this thing sounds like a personal preference issue more than anything. Abeit the design isnt the best one, but neither is an AK. Every single one will eventually fail. I have had AK's fail and Ive had AR's fail. My primary weapons system in combat has been and M4 but I have carried an AK as a backup in some circumstances. I will bow down and kiss your feet the first time you make ANY weapons system 1000 rounds without one single failure in one sitting. AK's have their purpose and so do AR's. Id like to see you fire a few three round bursts with an ak and keep them on paper at 50 yards. You couldnt do it. No human on this earth could. I can with an M4. And also you couldn't hti a target with any sort of accuracy beyong a couple hundred meters. I guaruntee you would have alot more confidence in the system if you actually had to use it in a real world combat situation. I happen to love the AR, and you love the Ak. Both have been proven in the field to be great guns. And even of the military doesnt use the best stuff all the time. They certainly dont field a "piece of s--t" as their primary weapon. I like mine you like yours, thats all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:28 am 
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I prefer the SKS in general (call me crazy). They both have pros and cons though obviously.

The AK just really doesn't "do it" for me. Ive owned a couple. They work well enough, but they just aren't my thing. I've managed to hang onto one of my SKS's...

Although the AR15 is my personal preference over all...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:46 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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Howdy,

I have a Norinco SKS that takes the AK mags w/ the monte claro stock. I get the reliability of a SKS w/ the detachable mags of an AK It also has a 16 1/2" barrel so it is short and handy. I modified the stock so it will take a 75rd drum.

Yep, 75rds of s/c hps w/out reloading. That's a pretty good SHTF weapon. Plus I paid $125 for the SKS and $29 for the drums back in the early 90's.

I also have a Norinco AK underfolder incase something happens to the SKS. Plus I only paid like $200 for it back before President Bush (R) banned them from importation back in 1989.

Paul


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:27 pm 
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If I could still buy drums for 29$ I'd buy 100 of them. Damn.


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