Records used to locate owners in a SHTF

1shot · Post by **1shot** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:37 pm

Has anyone given thought to or has there been any discussion about in the event of a "Red Dawn" SHTF incident, the invading forces possibly capturing and using NFA or other federally registered weapons/accessories records to seek out the owners of those weapons. I would think any force capable of such an invasion would certainly be intelligent enough to use this info to locate and "stop" anyone possessing such weapons for fear they would form militia or "rebel" groups.

mudshark · Post by **mudshark** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:55 am

If they've got an invasion force big enough to do that all over the country, all at once, then we're fucked anyway, 'cause it would mean we've been invaded by like 10,000,000 troops within a few hours.

Plus, whatever NFA stuff was out there and known about would be quickly "supplemented" by "other stuff".... not to mention what would be picked up off the numerous battlefields.

And aside from HMG's, MDMG's and LMG's, there wouldn't be much of a difference between an AR15 and an M16 or M4 in the hands of civvies shooting back.

If I were ever trying to kill someone with a rifle, I'd be on "semi" and aiming very carefully.

bp_968 · Post by **bp_968** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:55 pm

mudshark wrote:If they've got an invasion force big enough to do that all over the country, all at once, then we're fucked anyway, 'cause it would mean we've been invaded by like 10,000,000 troops within a few hours.

Plus, whatever NFA stuff was out there and known about would be quickly "supplemented" by "other stuff".... not to mention what would be picked up off the numerous battlefields.

And aside from HMG's, MDMG's and LMG's, there wouldn't be much of a difference between an AR15 and an M16 or M4 in the hands of civvies shooting back.

If I were ever trying to kill someone with a rifle, I'd be on "semi" and aiming very carefully.

Agreed. I'd be more worried about a still functional government deciding people didnt need guns at all and using the list to hunt us down that way. I find that unlikely as well here(at least anytime soon).

MGs are great for extreme CQC and for beltfed guns but I would agree with mudshark. Give me a long range suppressed rifle and a MP5 for backup. If I had to shoot people Id want it to be from as far away as possible. Two way bullet flights are not fun.

lawless · Post by **lawless** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:26 pm

Id take and AR over an M16 in a real shootout anyday. Im sure most that have been there will agree with me.

Landry308 · Post by **Landry308** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:15 am

lawless101aa wrote:Id take and AR over an M16 in a real shootout anyday. Im sure most that have been there will agree with me.

Bring your M16 and put it on "semi"

1911pilot · Post by **1911pilot** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:17 am

Landry308 wrote:
lawless101aa wrote:Id take and AR over an M16 in a real shootout anyday. Im sure most that have been there will agree with me.

Bring your M16 and put it on "semi"

+1 Its nice to have the option.

ArevaloSOCOM · Post by **ArevaloSOCOM** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:50 am

Red Dawn.

Bring me the "4473".

inkhead · Post by **inkhead** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:34 pm

During a FEMA emergency you will be disarmed. I don't think it matters what lists you are on, because they don't take time for lists, they just take weapons from legal owners.

I suggest your weapons stay hidden, unless you are using them. They are your protection.

bmanka · Post by **bmanka** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:21 pm

inkhead wrote:During a FEMA emergency you will be disarmed. I don't think it matters what lists you are on, because they don't take time for lists, they just take weapons from legal owners.

I doubt there will be another Katrina style roundup anytime soon. A confiscation would come with the invocation of the Emergency War Powers Act which gives force to 470 provisions of Federal law.

From http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... Powers_Act

"These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes."

"Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may: seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."

inkhead · Post by **inkhead** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:47 pm

A confiscation has NOTHING to do with the law. Most of the people had their firearms taken by cops (the bad ones) long before FEMA rules were in affect. You think they stop 'hmm probably shouldn't disarm that citizen, it might not be legal...' or 'I AM THE LAW'??? NOT TO mention marshal law was not declared.

Are you kidding? Katrina was just big enough for "barely" anyone to notice outside of the gun community. This stuff happens all the time, FEMA is everywhere, and so are military and police. Make no mistake your gun WILL be taken from you, MAYBE you will get it back, but then again maybe not.

Nothing gets LE attention more than a firearm. Let me know next time you are pulled over with a weapon and NOT detained for 30 minutes while they check all kinds of stuff. NOW imagine that it just flooded and his radio's busted and 40 other people like you have been pulled over. Cops will do anything, not to mention if you have something nice they will look for a reason to keep it for themselves.

Have you ever been in combat? Think about the phrase "Spoils of War".

delta9mda · Post by **delta9mda** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:26 pm

inkhead wrote:During a FEMA emergency you will be disarmed. I don't think it matters what lists you are on, because they don't take time for lists, they just take weapons from legal owners.

I suggest your weapons stay hidden, unless you are using them. They are your protection.

i dont think fema would be doing much in a red dawn scenario.

renegade · Post by **renegade** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:50 pm

inkhead wrote: Nothing gets LE attention more than a firearm. Let me know next time you are pulled over with a weapon and NOT detained for 30 minutes while they check all kinds of stuff.

Where do you live? I am in Texas and have been pulled over several times, sometimes with loaded machine guns. No big deal. Usually I am on my way in 3-5 minutes, without a ticket. In fact, it is written into Texas law now that guns in vehicles are generally OK.

bmanka · Post by **bmanka** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:28 pm

Inkhead, you are correct in that many police officers are unfamiliar with laws relative to some firearms and may be inclined to rest on their best guess rather than the letter of the law. This is particularly true when an NFA items is involved.

I would disagree that the Katrina experience was a "blip of the radar screen" for everyone outside the gun community. This singular event brought the matter of gun confiscations during states of emergency to the political forefront and spawned numerous state laws protecting citizens rights not to be disarmed in similar circumstances. I expect that should any similar emergency happen in the near future, gun rights advocates will be on the case prepared to stop illegal confiscations.

Finally, I'll comment on interactions with law enforcement officers. My personal experience in transporting firearms, shooting NFA items, and carrying a concealed handgun as a CHL holder has been almost universally positive. In Texas, most law enforcement officers I've met embrace the concept of CHL's. I've been pulled over for traffic violations when carrying and, as required by law, provided my drivers license and CHL. In almost all cases, the office let me go without a ticket primarily because I had a CHL and was actually carrying (they seem to respect that more than someone with a license that doesn't carry). There is still a big gap in general knowledge within the law enforcement community regarding NFA items, but I've never had a bad experience with an officer. I've explained the process of acquiring NFA items to civilians and law enforcement alike with universally positive responses. I always let guest's shoot my rifle / suppressor at the range so they get a feel for what it's like. If you don't look like a punk, then you are likely to get treated with respect by the men (and women) in blue.

The best thing, IMO, that any gun owner can do is be responsible, proficient, and knowledgeable about their rights and local laws.

Davo5o · Post by **Davo5o** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:38 pm

I got pulled over for running a stop sign, "soft stop", then going 30 in a 15 park zone, didn't have proof of insurance, didn't have proper plates on my ride, forgot my wallet and CCW card at home, was carrying a gun which I threw in my console to get off my person as soon as I saw I was getting pulled over, and walked away with a scolding and a verbal warning because I took personal responsibility for my actions and treated the officer with absolute respect. I personally believe he let me off because I was ccw and therefore he knew without a doubt I wasn't some punkass criminal. I'm still amazed and surprised as hell over the incident.

CDAT · Post by **CDAT** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:42 pm

Speaking as a LEO if you have a gun and do not tell me about it, it can be a very bad day for everyone, but if you tell me about it most of the time that is a large step in you favor, you just need to not flunk the attitude test. If you do that it will just about take God himself to get you off with out something, but that is gun on not.

Rgray · Post by **Rgray** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:03 pm

inkhead wrote:A confiscation has NOTHING to do with the law. Most of the people had their firearms taken by cops (the bad ones) long before FEMA rules were in affect. You think they stop 'hmm probably shouldn't disarm that citizen, it might not be legal...' or 'I AM THE LAW'??? NOT TO mention marshal law was not declared.

Are you kidding? Katrina was just big enough for "barely" anyone to notice outside of the gun community. This stuff happens all the time, FEMA is everywhere, and so are military and police. Make no mistake your gun WILL be taken from you, MAYBE you will get it back, but then again maybe not.

Nothing gets LE attention more than a firearm. Let me know next time you are pulled over with a weapon and NOT detained for 30 minutes while they check all kinds of stuff. NOW imagine that it just flooded and his radio's busted and 40 other people like you have been pulled over. Cops will do anything, not to mention if you have something nice they will look for a reason to keep it for themselves.

Have you ever been in combat? Think about the phrase "Spoils of War".

I got stopped for Window Tint that was too dark by a state trooper. I asked him to check the tint and he climbed in the back seat, moved my machine gun, and 45 with a suppressor on it and checked the tint.

Then he sit down in drivers seat and checked the "brow". I had a glock stuck between the 60/40 . He didn't as much as even ASK about a gun. Gave me a warning for the tint and let me go.

Sorry, but had to chime in.

Smalldog · Post by **Smalldog** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:23 am

Why an AR insted of an M16 (not like I have one), what is the difference other than the slector switch?

I'm not trying to bust your chops, you just peaked my interest in something that I don't know about.

jeepguy88 · Post by **jeepguy88** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:19 pm

Lets say a red dawn did happen, and the bad guys got a list of local gun owners, and went looking. How many of you would actually give up your gun? If all of you are die hard as you say, "they" dont need to come looking for us, we will be looking for "them"

Blaubart · Post by **Blaubart** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:36 pm

I've put a lot of thought into various SHTF scenarios and all of the various records being kept on gun owners is one of the things that scares me the most.

I'd probably hide my most useful weapons and keep a couple of sacrificial weapons to offer up should someone come knocking on my door to confiscate my weapons. I'd tell them I had sold all my other weapons before the war and that these are all I have left. After which time, I'd be free to go out on hunting trips to snipe enemy soldiers. Muhahaha!

Never snipe from your house though. Occupying forces usually have nothing against using a tank to destroy a house that someone is sniping from...

Wilder · Post by **Wilder** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:23 pm

CDAT wrote:Speaking as a LEO if you have a gun and do not tell me about it, it can be a very bad day for everyone, but if you tell me about it most of the time that is a large step in you favor, you just need to not flunk the attitude test. If you do that it will just about take God himself to get you off with out something, but that is gun on not.

+1 on the attitude test. I've only encountered one, that when treated with respect, did not do the same. I knew I was going to get a ticket at that point. I was a smartass after that point, but I was prepared to take the ride.

The conversation started " Officer how are you today". responce " A lot better than you are. What do you think your doing..... I had ran a 1 day old stop sign, on a road I traveled everyday. My responce " what stop sign" ,,, "the one you just ran" ,,, "sir?". 2 way changed to 4 way stop on a dirt cross road. I turned back around to see if there really was a stop sign. Fresh dirt where it was placed. This was a state trooper, on a dirt road!

I've never been disrespectful, nor been disrespected until that day. That tropper is on my s--t list and always will be. I have the upmost respect of police officers. I have none for him. If he had given me the ticket and not been a jackass, I wouldn't have any hard feelings.

I had ran the stop sign, I had broke the law, but I did not deserve to be treated the way I was treated.

Wilder · Post by **Wilder** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:27 pm

If it were a RED DAWN, I won't be home!

mhuffman · Post by **mhuffman** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:51 pm

CDAT wrote:Speaking as a LEO if you have a gun and do not tell me about it, it can be a very bad day for everyone, but if you tell me about it most of the time that is a large step in you favor, you just need to not flunk the attitude test. If you do that it will just about take God himself to get you off with out something, but that is gun on not.

Tell me where in the RCW it states one has to declare. You sound like you're on a power trip and ripe for the LEO bashing often found here.

Edit: Saw from your profile that you're military. Bad idea to take a gun on FLW or McChord unless it's registered on base.

Blaubart · Post by **Blaubart** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:13 am

In my experience, Ft Campbell was the worst post to bring unregistered guns onto. Perhaps it was just the post commander and things everywhere could be different now, but they conducted random 100% vehicle searches where every vehicle coming and going was searched. I got stopped for two of these in the 2 1/2 years I was stationed there. I never had my vehicle searched in the other 9 years I was assigned to other installations.

But the stories they'd tell of the kind of weapons they found in these searches were pretty interesting.

lawless · Post by **lawless** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:41 pm

I agree, FT Campbell sucks ass. They have some of the tightest base security I hav ever seen.

Blaubart · Post by **Blaubart** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:51 pm

Yeah, they do, but I don't hold it against them, or any other post for that matter. But it does suck when you're on DRF1 and you get the call at 0530 and some prick wants to mess with you at the gate at 0550 just because he can. I was so happy when I finally got into housing so I could easily make alerts on time.