Firearms Training Courses

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orion14
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Firearms Training Courses

Post by orion14 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:24 pm

Anyone have any experience with this or other providers of firearms training? This seems very interesting, especially the civilian war fighter/ team tactics and the Kalashnikov rifle gunfighting.

http://www.suarezinternational.com/

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Post by noiseless » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:31 pm

The short version, yes I have and I would never take a class from him again
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Post by noiseless » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:52 pm

I should add, there is a bunch of good training out there, with all platforms. Some of the best instructors travel the country putting on classes. Clint Smith, the Father of "Urban Rifle" classes was a traveling instructor for years before joining H&K and then opening Thunder Ranch.

Find a good facility in your area that takes in these world class instructors and get training. Going to classes in your home turf greatly extends your training dollar.

One such facility in Central Florida (Lakeland area) is Southern Exposure. Looking at their Schedule, they have Randy Cain coming for classes. I have attended Randy's classes and would highly recommend him.
[b]Sharp Knives and Quiet Guns[/b]

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770-925-9988 (phone)
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Post by mikeareese » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:52 pm

I would look into greygrouptraining or blackwaterusa.

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Post by thunderhole » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:30 pm

I've taken 3 courses from Insights. I can not say enough good about them. Very
professional and I definately got my money's worth.
Last edited by thunderhole on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Snake-eater 1 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:23 am

noiseless wrote:The short version, yes I have and I would never take a class from him again
Could you elaborate please. We have been thinking about invitiing one of his associate instructors to teach a class at our club. Thanks.
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Post by st33ve0 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:19 am

I found a group nearby and when it starts to cool down I'll be going through their full line of pistol and carbine training asap. They also have montly IDPA competitions. www.doddtraining.com

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Post by Frank Rizzo » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:17 pm

Front Sight outside of Vegas was a kickass experience for me!
Highly reccommend it.

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Post by noiseless » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:18 pm

Snake-eater 1 wrote:
noiseless wrote:The short version, yes I have and I would never take a class from him again
Could you elaborate please. We have been thinking about invitiing one of his associate instructors to teach a class at our club. Thanks.
A little background. I am a Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor. I have personally taken hundreds on hundreds (probably thousands) of hours of firearms classes. I have had the honor to take classes from many of the "Name Brand" Instructors out there and many talented "No Name" Instructors.

The class I took from Mr. Suarez's organization, then "HALO Group", was billed as an "Advanced Pistol", taught personally by Gabe Suarez. Given Mr. Suarez's reputation at the time, I thought it would be an excellent opportunity for a friend to get some training from a "World Class" Instructor and I gifted him a spot in the class out of my own pocket and attended myself.

I should say that I had previously had him as a student from Beginning to what I would consider Intermediate skills. But you should always seek training from as many different instructors as you can. This class was a birthday present from me to him.

The class itself could basically be summed up as "Watch Gabe Suarez Shoot". Mr. Suarez is a talented shooter and a heck of a story teller, but his Instructional abilities were lacking.

The skills that were practiced in the class were more to the "Beginner" level and were far from anything resembling "Advanced". Pretty much a waste of time and money all involved.

Once the class was completed we were told that certificates would be mailed out in a week or so.

After a couple of months I started emailing Mr. Suarez about the certificates and was told they were coming. A month later another email and another "coming". A couple of weeks, another email, an excuse about trouble with a Partner, but "coming" none the less. ect, ect.

I ended up getting a certificate of completion for a "Special Pistol and Shotgun" course . . . Shotgun?

My friend, who I had embarrassingly gifted the class . . . never did get a certificate, not even a "Shotgun" one.

Again, there are a lot of great instructors out there and based on my experiences, I wouldn't take another class from him, nor would I recommend him.
[b]Sharp Knives and Quiet Guns[/b]

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Post by Ramius » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:26 am

Better look up "exchange in abundance" and "operation clambake" :roll:

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Re: Firearms Training Courses

Post by flyfisher66048 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:41 pm

orion14 wrote:Anyone have any experience with this or other providers of firearms training? This seems very interesting, especially the civilian war fighter/ team tactics and the Kalashnikov rifle gunfighting.

http://www.suarezinternational.com/
I have taken rifle, shotgun, pistol classes from Front Sight, and TDSA in Dallas, and from the handgun force on force from Gabe. I highly recommend the the force on force handgun class. It opened m eyes to the fight aspect of "Gunfight".

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Post by IdahoCorsair » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:01 pm

I took an abbreviated pistol course from Suarez. It's the ONLY training course that I'll openly bash. I used to say ANY training is better than no training... now I say ANY training other than Suarez's stuff is better than no training. Simply put, if you apply what I was taught in that course, you'd be better off without any training - it will get you killed.
For handgun or rifle, I highly recommend going to Front Sight. Buy a "grey certificate" online for your first trip so it won't cost an arm and leg. It's top notch, professional, and consistent (same course every time, no instructor ego/modification of the course material)... I you go to be taught (rather than just shoot) you'll come back changed. I've taken 3 courses there. ALL were top flight.
A true Warrior does not seek war, nor does he wish to do battle. He merely believes that it is honorable to cling to a worthy cause. It is noble to reach out to those who are weaker than himself and it is valiant to believe that many things are worth giving up everything for.
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Soli Deo Gloria!

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Post by delmccormick » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:29 pm

+1 For Front Sight. Have taken a couple Pistol (two and four day) and a shotgun class there. Excellent instruction all around. Their marketing is a bit bizarre, but the classes themselves are first rate.

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Post by mtelkman » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:18 pm

I have never taken a course from Gabe Suarez himself but have taken Close Range Gunfighting from one of his Suarez International instructors. I think it was a great class. I certainly don't see how doing anything they taught would get me killed in a gunfight. That is ludicrous. I have taken courses from other instructors/schools (Tactical Response, LEO academies) and can't say they were any better. Definitely some differences, but none were significantly better.

One of the guys who attended the Suarez class with me had taken about a dozen different courses including Front Sight, Tactical Response, etc., and also thought it was a good class.

Shooting while moving off the line of attack, presentation, reloads, malfunctions, legal issues, etc. were all consistent with other top schools. Maybe Gabe himself is a poor instructor but the class I attended was well worth the money.

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Post by IdahoCorsair » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:48 pm

Let me clarify if I may. Gabe's theory is 110% solid. Maybe I got a goofy instructor (but given his videos I doubt it), and I know the class was limited, but to give you some specifics.
1. The "getting off the X" that they teach (awesome concept! smart, proven etc) was moving to the 11 or 1 o'clock of the target TOWARDS the BG! They also taught moving to the 7 or 5 o'clock away from the BG. Hm... doesn't that largely defeat the purpose of "moving" since moving towards and away from someone hardly makes them adjust their point of aim while your shots are less accurate cause you're moving? Strike one.

2. Lots of one handed shooting... specifically WHILE moving toward the BG, transition to the hand that's closest to the BG and shoot at him while moving quickly toward the BG and essentially brush shoulders with the BG and run away from the danger. Again, theory is ok (move and get out of there). Practicality says that transitioning to weak hand only during stress is not smart... too much chance you'll drop the gun, and further... why shoot one handed when you don't have to? WTF? I mean, I could do all the drills with two hands and the guy was getting on my case (nicely of course) about not doing it one handed. Hu? Also why move the gun into the hand that's closest to the BG when you're going to end up literally inches from him? Retention anyone? Strike two!

3. Spray and pray. While Gabe does teach accuracy is important verbally, in the videos of GABE teaching and what I experienced with one of his instructors, it's a distant second from flinging lead. The instructor would NOT let us tape or change targets EVER. So I had no idea if what I was doing was effective (was I even hitting the target, and where?) after 4 different people used the same target! WTF? No way to measure the effectivness of the training. Strike three!

I will make two points in DEFENSE of SUAREZ's training. I got a VERY VERY brief intro to his rifle (AK) course (half hour) ... it was ROCK SOLID... VERY GOOD stuff. Hopefully this proves that I don't just have an axe to grind against Suarez International. Two, his theory is unparalleled... it's just the way he applies it sucks.

Note: Gabe himself is a kick-ass shot, good guy, and good communicator from everything I know about him. I wouldn't want to mess with him either! :D I think he's just trying too hard to make his training unique when he doesn't have to.
A true Warrior does not seek war, nor does he wish to do battle. He merely believes that it is honorable to cling to a worthy cause. It is noble to reach out to those who are weaker than himself and it is valiant to believe that many things are worth giving up everything for.
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Soli Deo Gloria!

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Post by mtelkman » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:51 pm

Hmmmm. Maybe it was your instructor... Things definitely sound like they went different than in my class.

Also, I thought that the Suarez course and the Tactical Response course were very similar for pistol. Both were good training. I did think that the Suarez course was run more "safely" but that may have also been just the instructor not chewing the ass of people who needed it when they did something stupid.

I have always thought that the best way to go about training was to take courses from as many different instructors as you can; then take what works and throw out what doesn't.[/i]

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Post by IdahoCorsair » Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:35 pm

mtelkman wrote: I have always thought that the best way to go about training was to take courses from as many different instructors as you can; then take what works and throw out what doesn't.[/i]
Agreed. :D Now if I just had enough $$$$ for all those plane tickets, bullets, and course fees!!! :roll:
A true Warrior does not seek war, nor does he wish to do battle. He merely believes that it is honorable to cling to a worthy cause. It is noble to reach out to those who are weaker than himself and it is valiant to believe that many things are worth giving up everything for.
- Phil Messina

Soli Deo Gloria!

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Post by lawless » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:26 pm

Find a traveler, theyre probably more experienced with the "gunfight" than just teaching it. Most places that are set up permanently are bread more for the amateur than the guy who knows his s--t. I have a lifetime membership that was given to me by frontsight and Ive used it a whole one time even left after the second day of classes. I think I broke my challenge card picking my door lock.
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Re: Firearms Training Courses

Post by GlockandRoll » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:31 am

Gabe Suarez is insane.

He's still got that "I'm a man, you are a boy" attitude that dick-head cops have, combined with little man syndrome, combined with a slime-ball attitude in general.
I've lurked around his WT.com threads a few times, and not only have I seem him threaten posters that disagreed with him, but I've also noticed a VERY nasty habit he has... and that is to delete posts that others make that points out his contradictions, and bans them.. but doesn't show them as banned or their posts removed by site admin, etc.


These facts, based on his conviction for fraud, make him someone I do not want to be around while they have a loaded gun.

Oh, an old Gabe is really quick to tell you his "Story"... boo hoo!!! He got caught trying to milk the system, claiming workman's comp and disability (including early pension) and was convicted.

Guys, thing about this.. he was a cop, and COPS threw the book at him!!!!
Cops almost ALWAYS go out of their way to protect one of there own, unless of course they do not LIKE them.

The only "Survival" Gabe teaches is how to stroke his ego as to not get banned from his forums. I've seen him personally threaten anyone who disagrees with him, and offers a valid counter argument.

I've goofed up before (most of us have) and it got me fired from a job once. I wasn't stealing per say, but I was taking advantage of a company resource for personal gain in clear violation of company policy. I was a young dumb kid, and I learned my lesson.

The guy is narcissistic and I'm guessing mentally unfit to own firearms due to his childish arguments and how quickly he likes to insult people.

I know I wouldn't not last 1 day on that sight becuase I would laugh at them, and they have ZERO sense of humor, a tell-tell sign of immaturity and a frail ego.

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Re: Firearms Training Courses

Post by LYNRDSKYNRD » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:32 pm

If you are bringing an instructor in Check with Bennie Cooley.

http://www.benniecooley.com/
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Re:

Post by Kip42 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:20 am

noiseless wrote:The short version, yes I have and I would never take a class from him again
+1. Suarez as well as other places are watered down. Look to see if they reholster one handed, reload up where you can see the target, 360 search and acess EVERYTIME before you reload, never put away an empty gun, etc. Almost all other training centers other than Tactical Response have instructors that dont incorporate new lines of thought.

If you want true honest training find James Yeager of Tactical Response in Tennesse. I drove across the country to take his classes and am going back for more! They offer a money back guarentee but I dont think you will need it! I have checked out all schools. If you truly want to learn how to survive go to tactical response. Places like front sight put court matters first. An instructor there told me not to carry to much extra ammo it will look bad in court. That is BS live first deal with court later.


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Re: Firearms Training Courses

Post by Kip42 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:25 am

GlockandRoll wrote:Gabe Suarez is insane.

He's still got that "I'm a man, you are a boy" attitude that dick-head cops have, combined with little man syndrome, combined with a slime-ball attitude in general.
I've lurked around his WT.com threads a few times, and not only have I seem him threaten posters that disagreed with him, but I've also noticed a VERY nasty habit he has... and that is to delete posts that others make that points out his contradictions, and bans them.. but doesn't show them as banned or their posts removed by site admin, etc.


These facts, based on his conviction for fraud, make him someone I do not want to be around while they have a loaded gun.

Oh, an old Gabe is really quick to tell you his "Story"... boo hoo!!! He got caught trying to milk the system, claiming workman's comp and disability (including early pension) and was convicted.

Guys, thing about this.. he was a cop, and COPS threw the book at him!!!!
Cops almost ALWAYS go out of their way to protect one of there own, unless of course they do not LIKE them.

The only "Survival" Gabe teaches is how to stroke his ego as to not get banned from his forums. I've seen him personally threaten anyone who disagrees with him, and offers a valid counter argument.

I've goofed up before (most of us have) and it got me fired from a job once. I wasn't stealing per say, but I was taking advantage of a company resource for personal gain in clear violation of company policy. I was a young dumb kid, and I learned my lesson.

The guy is narcissistic and I'm guessing mentally unfit to own firearms due to his childish arguments and how quickly he likes to insult people.

I know I wouldn't not last 1 day on that sight becuase I would laugh at them, and they have ZERO sense of humor, a tell-tell sign of immaturity and a frail ego.
I was going to take their guerilla sniper class but it seems like a joke now.

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Re: Firearms Training Courses

Post by GlockandRoll » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:38 am

Kip42 wrote:
GlockandRoll wrote:Gabe Suarez is insane.

He's still got that "I'm a man, you are a boy" attitude that dick-head cops have, combined with little man syndrome, combined with a slime-ball attitude in general.
I've lurked around his WT.com threads a few times, and not only have I seem him threaten posters that disagreed with him, but I've also noticed a VERY nasty habit he has... and that is to delete posts that others make that points out his contradictions, and bans them.. but doesn't show them as banned or their posts removed by site admin, etc.


These facts, based on his conviction for fraud, make him someone I do not want to be around while they have a loaded gun.

Oh, an old Gabe is really quick to tell you his "Story"... boo hoo!!! He got caught trying to milk the system, claiming workman's comp and disability (including early pension) and was convicted.

Guys, thing about this.. he was a cop, and COPS threw the book at him!!!!
Cops almost ALWAYS go out of their way to protect one of there own, unless of course they do not LIKE them.

The only "Survival" Gabe teaches is how to stroke his ego as to not get banned from his forums. I've seen him personally threaten anyone who disagrees with him, and offers a valid counter argument.

I've goofed up before (most of us have) and it got me fired from a job once. I wasn't stealing per say, but I was taking advantage of a company resource for personal gain in clear violation of company policy. I was a young dumb kid, and I learned my lesson.

The guy is narcissistic and I'm guessing mentally unfit to own firearms due to his childish arguments and how quickly he likes to insult people.

I know I wouldn't not last 1 day on that sight becuase I would laugh at them, and they have ZERO sense of humor, a tell-tell sign of immaturity and a frail ego.
I was going to take their guerilla sniper class but it seems like a joke now.
Go to warrior talk and read the post about the guy Gabe threatened to kill on the boards becuase he didn't agree with Gabe. Gabe tried to do some PR on this and it backfired on him becuase the guy posted screen-shots on his own blog. I think it may have been on the firing line or the hide, not sure.

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Re: Firearms Training Courses

Post by JohnnyC » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:46 am

James Yeager has some issues of his own. I wouldn't take a class from him if you paid my way.

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Re: Firearms Training Courses

Post by GlockandRoll » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:07 am

Sadly, waaaayyy too many of these guys do have issues.

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