Suppressors as SHTF gear?

[ArevaloSOCOM]

The only reason for 5.7 IMHO is if you can get your hands on AP stuff.

Since i can't, I see now useful need for it that my other weapon platforms couldn't do.

[Illuminated_one]

I was under the impression that the SS195 would puncture some of the lighter body armor.

If it doesn't though, there is a company that is melting the lead out of the M855 62g FMJs and filling them with a polymer or epoxy or something.

Makes it a 30 or so grain bullet with a steel penetrator.

Again, if I thought I was going to be in a firefight I would grab my M4.

The only semi .308 I have is a PTR91, and it was about the worst magazine release I've ever come across.

[lawless]

Im building an ar10 308 so im covered. I about bought a ptr91. Now Im glad I didnt.

[Davo5o]

I understand its a PDW specialty round for light weight, low recoil, high speed, high round count, and punching vests. However, I read an article on this board somewhere that a cop shot a dude like 40 times with the 5.7 PDW and didn't put him down. I don't remember the rd count but it was somewhere between 20-80 rds, either way it didn't stop him for s--t.

Has the round been field tested with good raw data yet??? If so, show me where, I'm always interested to learn more. So educate me and tell me why the 5.7 is such a good SHTF gun, when it's design was PDW. Unless hanging out at your house and eating rabbits is your idea of SHTF. Because my SHTF situation involves wilderness survival, and maybe some short term urban survival. Staying in your house or fort is obviously the best if possible, but a true SHTF to me means everyone's running for the hills. Red Dawn and what not.

I'm not saying I wouldn't use it if I had it, but in comparison to so many of my alternative weapons, I suppose I might give it to my wife for it's lack of recoil. Once it was out of ammo I'd dump it like a fat chick. Use it and lose it.

Calico M100 pistol FA suppressed for a PDW?? Whatdaya think of dat? Couple extra hundred round drums, cheap to feed, easy to carry around the house.

[Illuminated_one]

If they have the paddle type mag release it's not bad, like an AK.

But mine only has the button on the side of the receiver. It's out of reach of my trigger finger, so I have to use both hands to get the magazine out.

I hear they do have paddle mag release kit available though. I guess I should order one.

[Illuminated_one]

Well, unless China builds some sort of teleportation device and decides to invade the middle of no where Idaho, I think I can avoid a red dawn type scenario

Have you ever read Black Hawk Down?
I remember one "large" lady that they had to put several bursts into with M16s and an M249 to get her to drop.

Some people are more determined than others.

The point I've been trying to get across is that the 5.7 would work, and has it's uses, but there is always a bigger/better round to use.
I'll use the 5.7 because I have it. If I had a full auto suppressed Calico, well I'd probably be to busy drooling on it to be very useful

[kalikraven]

As far as the 20-80 rounds not dropping a guy I have two words, now pay attention to this.........



SHOT PLACEMENT !!!

[lawless]

Good shot placement is next to impossible when youre being shot at. General direction.....shoot.

Also davo I agree the 5.7 isnt a great shtf gun. It is fun though.

[jonthan]

Lawless,

The DUKE did it all the time in the movies.

Oh, and I would bring my we-lil Outback and .22 rifle along. I would just shoot the bad people in the nuts from concealment, just like the Israelis.

They may not die, but they won't breed.

[Esteves]

However, I read an article on this board somewhere that a cop shot a dude like 40 times with the 5.7 PDW and didn't put him down. I don't remember the rd count but it was somewhere between 20-80 rds, either way it didn't stop him for s--t.

I've seen variations on that rumor with round counts anywhere from 11 to 150 - references are generally not provided by the person recollecting what they heard. FWIW, I couldn't find a thread on this board that fit your criteria. You may be right, I just couldn't find it.

Has the round been field tested with good raw data yet??? If so, show me where, I'm always interested to learn more.

The FiveseveNForum (http://fivesevenforum.net/) is probably the best place to start. There are articles/threads there with gel-tests, results of game shooting, first-hand accounts of defensive shooting, and attributed accounts of publicised shootings using the round.

So educate me and tell me why the 5.7 is such a good SHTF gun, when it's design was PDW.

The whole thread got side-tracked. If we back up to the topic at hand "Suppressor as SHTF gear?" and all of its aspects (including suppressed .22LR and suppressed pistols) and not just the biggest-baddest-anti-materiel-rifles-that-can-stop-a-hummer-at-1000-yards then discussion of PDWs does make sense. The 5.7x28mm is definitely a step up from the .22 caliber Rimfires balistically. No, it doesn't have the same punch as the larger center fire rifle cartridges, but then again neither do pistol rounds in general. The P90 (and derivative PS90) were designed as alternatives to the 9mm pistol and do generally fit that role well, although opinions differ. It was never intended to be a replacement for the M4+5.56x45mm combo, but neither is a M9 or a 1911.

Unless hanging out at your house and eating rabbits is your idea of SHTF. Because my SHTF situation involves wilderness survival, and maybe some short term urban survival. Staying in your house or fort is obviously the best if possible, but a true SHTF to me means everyone's running for the hills. Red Dawn and what not.

I'm not saying I wouldn't use it if I had it, but in comparison to so many of my alternative weapons, I suppose I might give it to my wife for it's lack of recoil.

Those are good points. Different people will plan for different SHTF scenarios and will have different constraints and resources. I think that PDWs might make sense if you anticipate needing to arm people who aren't into shooting. Most people's plans will have bulk/weight constraints outside of the home fortress scenario and mixing PDWs into the weapon selection options might help balance those constraints.

With handloads, the FiveseveN pistol should yield exterior and terminal ballistics roughly equivalent to Aguila SSS fired from a rifle with the ability to swap magazines and utilize the Mach 2+ ammunition quickly if needed. Space/bulk/weight-wise the FiveseveN is a smaller package than even a SBR 10/22 with a folding stock. Suppressor size and weight are roughly equivalent for the two platforms, so call that "a wash." The .22LR is less bulky and lighter than 5.7x28mm in the package, but not necessarily so if loaded into magazines (compare a loaded FsN magazine to a loaded increased-capacity 10/22 magazine.)

Lastly, I'm certainly not advocating a one-gun-one-caliber-does-everything approach. All caliber/weapon selections involve trade-offs. The real question is "What trade-offs make sense to a given individual?"

[gewehrmonkey]

I agree that a suppressor is a potentially valuable tool for SHTF.
Like every other choice we make, you have to tailor the tool to the job. I tried to make my firearms match my lifestyle, family and surroundings.
I have a family, which includes myself, my wife, and two girls, 5 and 15.
I live in the high desert near the mountains and a good sized lake. I am 25 miles from the nearest actual town, with maybe 2,000 people in the surrounding area. Conceivably, I could need to make shots at anything from contact distance to miles. In heavy trees to open, flat desert.
For SHTF, I have no intention of bugging out. I certainly don't want to announce to everyone around that I am harvesting supper. That means traps, nets, gigs, "juggin'" for fish, and suppressors. For me, the .22 is just about the perfect set up with a suppressor. I do have a knife, and if the scenario presents itself, I'd use it if it were the best choice. I sure would hate to be laying in the sage brush thinking "Right now, I sure wish I had a suppressed .22 instead of this knife on a stick". I'd rather look at all of my tools and choose the one that best fits the bill.
Each of us would have different needs. I have tried to tailor my own potential needs to the scenarios that I can envision, choosing tools that will best help me get the job done. Over and above that, I have chosen tools that I enjoy in the meantime, since society seems to keep moving forward.

[ctdonath]

Having just gotten a .22LR conversion kit for my AR15, I'm thinking that plus a can makes a good SHTF option. Two uber-common calibers, one platform & suppressor, one small & light converter. Stow a brick of subsonic .22LR in the BoB next to the Ceiner box - a lot more options for not a lot more weight & volume.

Still mulling over an integral-suppressor .22 pistol though; methinks a .308 "scout rifle" is ideal for generic SHTF, and a second silenced compact gun means both a quiet option and a functionally separate backup.

[withoutremorse42]

first off: sounds like nobody disagrees with the OP's idea that suppressors are great for SHTF, as an option if nothing else.

2nd, to the ridiculously abrasive post awhile back, John Holmes was white.

3rd, one other twist besides not alerting other people to your position, is not alerting other animals to your presence. This is two fold. As most hunters (or common sense folks) know, loud noises scare animals. Duh right? But in my neck of the woods, we also have to worry about dangerous animals finding us! On admiralty island, once you shoot a deer you have 1-15 minutes to get your deer moved before some of the famous bears come looking for free food.

Sure, you might think "just kill the bear too" but you might not have the proper gear for that, want to waste that extra meat for later, or simply be like many other woods travelling individuals and be mauled. That list includes a number of experienced hunters and guides who had already shot said bears in lethal spots (lungs, heart, head) Not a major concern for many people, just wanted to touch on it.

I'm not going to argue usefulness of 5.7 as a caliber, but for SHTF it's availability would be very limiting for most.

Seems supressors are a no brainer then. As for the "dimwits" who ponied up cash for .22 suppressors, well if its really SHTF it's still pretty easy to make a 22 suppressor.

As for expensive tools, my mp5SD is my only suppressed tool right now. I will happily take that for SHTF though, as I'm very familiar with it, accurate with it and have ammo aplenty. Being ex-.mil I have hundreds of thousands of rounds through m-4's and would be happy with my AR and the like, but up here bulk .223 is the exception, not the rule.

Jens

[jonthan]

I know that rabbits are no comparison to humans, but the V-Max bullet is nothing to overlook.

Shot many rabbits and skunks 1.5' and (little) over in length with a 17 gr 17 hmr V-Max round.

Entrance hole about the size of a quarter "mushing" all bones in area, and traveling the length of the body.

Exit hole bigger than my fist. Guts hanging and spread out everywhere. Damage is at 50'. At 100' the damage is almost as impressive.

These bullets are moving at approx 2500fps and are 17 gr.

Point being that the 5.7mm V-Max is almost double the weight and approx the same velocity.

My thoughts are that it's too bad this ammo/weapon system is so expensive.

[kycrawler]

supressed 10/22 would be about perfect for my neck of the woods
i have a screw on can waiting for my form 4 to come back

i would think a suppressed rifle would be marginally more practical due to longer shot possiblity

the israeli's used them for special forces and some standard units got them also they were pulled from normal service because they were killing too many people in riot situations

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/ ... -3_250.jpg

[Rockfish Dave]

Peoples pets will be an excellent food source in cities if the SHTF.

Dan

Dan, funny that I just read your post. My wife and I were just talking about if the other would be willing to kill to protect out dogs. We both agreed that we would (after all it's only fair, the dogs would do the same for us).

I cannot help but think that messing with other's animals (extended family) would be a high risk proposition at best.

[ctdonath]

it's only fair, the dogs would do the same for us

Very insightful and well put.

[Sigproshooter]

The 22LR isn't being praised for power, only for every other reason stated. It has just enough power to get the job done with a head shot, and that's all. The 5.7 has a little more power, and non of the other benefits. Body shots with the 5.7 and 22 are about the same, no stopping power. The 5.7 weighs more, costs a ton more, is very hard to find especially in a SHTF senario, and really has very limited power potential. I personally think it's a POS round with very little SHTF potential. Other than it's better than nothing. Anyone is free to use whatever they want for whatever they want, and anyone else is free to critisize all they want. If you have a 5.7 more power to you, have fun with that, I'm sure you have more guns than just one, and I hope non of us ever encounter a real SHTF situation. Personally if I had to choose just one gun, it sure as hell wouldn't be a 5.7.

Why does everybody think owning a 5.7 is a bad deal in a shtf? Regardless of caliber,,if you are waiting to get ammo AFTER shtf, you just fucked up mortally.Yea, it may be cheaper,but you may get shot trying to get it.

5.7 ammo is easy to get and the price has NOT gone up while every caliber out there has gone nuts.

Ammo applies as does water,food gear,fuel,protection and a couple good friends.


Buy enough ammo and enough componets to reload your sweet calibers to survive then buy more just in case it lasts for years instead of days/weeks/months.

I have over 10k of 5.7,hell I've fired over 4k though my Fiveseven with GT can and I keep 10k just for fun.

[Rgray]

The 22LR isn't being praised for power, only for every other reason stated. It has just enough power to get the job done with a head shot, and that's all. The 5.7 has a little more power, and non of the other benefits. Body shots with the 5.7 and 22 are about the same, no stopping power. The 5.7 weighs more, costs a ton more, is very hard to find especially in a SHTF senario, and really has very limited power potential. I personally think it's a POS round with very little SHTF potential. Other than it's better than nothing. Anyone is free to use whatever they want for whatever they want, and anyone else is free to critisize all they want. If you have a 5.7 more power to you, have fun with that, I'm sure you have more guns than just one, and I hope non of us ever encounter a real SHTF situation. Personally if I had to choose just one gun, it sure as hell wouldn't be a 5.7.

Why does everybody think owning a 5.7 is a bad deal in a shtf? Regardless of caliber,,if you are waiting to get ammo AFTER shtf, you just fucked up mortally.Yea, it may be cheaper,but you may get shot trying to get it.

5.7 ammo is easy to get and the price has NOT gone up while every caliber out there has gone nuts.

Ammo applies as does water,food gear,fuel,protection and a couple good friends.


Buy enough ammo and enough componets to reload your sweet calibers to survive then buy more just in case it lasts for years instead of days/weeks/months.

I have over 10k of 5.7,hell I've fired over 4k though my Fiveseven with GT can and I keep 10k just for fun.

If it is true SHTF, with a box of .22 you can get all the 5.7 you know the location of.

[Sigproshooter]

The 22LR isn't being praised for power, only for every other reason stated. It has just enough power to get the job done with a head shot, and that's all. The 5.7 has a little more power, and non of the other benefits. Body shots with the 5.7 and 22 are about the same, no stopping power. The 5.7 weighs more, costs a ton more, is very hard to find especially in a SHTF senario, and really has very limited power potential. I personally think it's a POS round with very little SHTF potential. Other than it's better than nothing. Anyone is free to use whatever they want for whatever they want, and anyone else is free to critisize all they want. If you have a 5.7 more power to you, have fun with that, I'm sure you have more guns than just one, and I hope non of us ever encounter a real SHTF situation. Personally if I had to choose just one gun, it sure as hell wouldn't be a 5.7.

Why does everybody think owning a 5.7 is a bad deal in a shtf? Regardless of caliber,,if you are waiting to get ammo AFTER shtf, you just fucked up mortally.Yea, it may be cheaper,but you may get shot trying to get it.

5.7 ammo is easy to get and the price has NOT gone up while every caliber out there has gone nuts.

Ammo applies as does water,food gear,fuel,protection and a couple good friends.


Buy enough ammo and enough componets to reload your sweet calibers to survive then buy more just in case it lasts for years instead of days/weeks/months.

I have over 10k of 5.7,hell I've fired over 4k though my Fiveseven with GT can and I keep 10k just for fun.

If it is true SHTF, with a box of .22 you can get all the 5.7 you know the location of.

You are kidding right

[Rgray]

Why does everybody think owning a 5.7 is a bad deal in a shtf? Regardless of caliber,,if you are waiting to get ammo AFTER shtf, you just fucked up mortally.Yea, it may be cheaper,but you may get shot trying to get it.

5.7 ammo is easy to get and the price has NOT gone up while every caliber out there has gone nuts.

Ammo applies as does water,food gear,fuel,protection and a couple good friends.


Buy enough ammo and enough componets to reload your sweet calibers to survive then buy more just in case it lasts for years instead of days/weeks/months.

I have over 10k of 5.7,hell I've fired over 4k though my Fiveseven with GT can and I keep 10k just for fun.

If it is true SHTF, with a box of .22 you can get all the 5.7 you know the location of.

You are kidding right

Define SHTF.

[kurt]

There are some seriously goofy moon-bats posting in this thread.

[nitram]

This thread should be renamed, "GlockandRoll, owned left and right until he gave up on pg. 6"

[oregonforester]

I dont own an air rifle, and I have long championed the bow as the ultimate silent weapon.

You take everything I say out of context, it's not a lack of respect I have for the .22lr, it's a lack of respect for someone who is so dimwitted that they spend $200 on the NFA hassel to suppress one, when in reality my .308 bolt gun with subsonic is just as quiet.

I usually first look at the number of posts that someone has when I disagree with them, and do (most generally) respect that number....however (and you knew that this was coming).....
I have a 9mm suppresor, one in .223, and one for .22LR, and I most certainly know the difference in the noise levels of them!
Tell me, please, just what kind of suppressor you have for your .308 that even approaches the noise reduction level of my .22 suppressor?

As to the fact that you have called me dimwitted for paying a tax on my .22 suppressor (Gawd, I must be a flaming idiot for paying the tax on my SBR 10-22!), I must ask myself...."is GlockandRoll a troll, or just plain stupid?" Please, sir, prove to me that you are neither.

[3101]

stick around a while Oregonforester, you will figure it out for yourself...
Am I watching you on "Axmen" by the way??