Leaving mags loaded?

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ThePatriot
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Leaving mags loaded?

Post by ThePatriot »

Call me paranoid but when SHTF I want to be ready to rock and roll with as much firepower as possible. I have several firearms for this purpose and a stockpile of ammo. My question is, roughly how long can I store mags loaded before they could be damaged causing feed problems? The mags in question are milspec 30 rnd AR15, Glock factory, and AGP Saiga. Thanks in advance.
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hemi
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Post by hemi »

Springs don't weaken from being under pressure. It's the constant loading/unloading that slowly weakens them. LOAD THEM BITCHES UP.
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chrismartin
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Post by chrismartin »

Hemi is right. No worries about the springs. The feed lips would gradually spread though. Magpul has done some testing on this and found it to be very little, but they do supply the top cover to alleviate the pressure.
As far as everything else, you could always download the mags a few to help with that.
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Post by ThePatriot »

Thanks guys
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Post by robpiat »

chrismartin wrote:Hemi is right. No worries about the springs. The feed lips would gradually spread though. Magpul has done some testing on this and found it to be very little, but they do supply the top cover to alleviate the pressure.
As far as everything else, you could always download the mags a few to help with that.
Magpul hasn't been, and there pmags certainly haven't been, around long enough to really say.

There are numerous stories of WW2 era or Vietnam era loaded mags being picked up and shot without fail.

I agree that evidence shows loading / unloading is the worst.
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Post by chrismartin »

robpiat wrote:
Magpul hasn't been, and there pmags certainly haven't been, around long enough to really say.
True, but they (magpul) have posted that they have been leaving pre-production mags loaded fully and measuring the results since it's inception. Now, 3-4 years isn't that long, but at least they are keeping an eye out.
I didn't mean to suggest a 30 year test or anything.
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Post by Diomed »

The feedlip spread is more of an issue for the polymer mags, isn't it? I think any decent mag is going to be putting follower pressure on the feedlips when unloaded.

The springs should be fine unless they're either really old (less precise manufacture) or really cheap (e.g. Lorcin, etc.). I would be concerned about round deformation in the Saiga shotgun mags, what with the plastic hulls.
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Post by robpiat »

Diomed wrote:The feedlip spread is more of an issue for the polymer mags, isn't it? I think any decent mag is going to be putting follower pressure on the feedlips when unloaded.

The springs should be fine unless they're either really old (less precise manufacture) or really cheap (e.g. Lorcin, etc.). I would be concerned about round deformation in the Saiga shotgun mags, what with the plastic hulls.
The polymer AK-74 mags have been around for 30 years or so and have not seen hardly any issues and have been battle tested.

They are reinforced in a few locations with steel though.

Also galil mags have been around for awhile.


The magpul plastic is stiffer, and more wear resistant in my opinion than the 74 or galil mags. If you look at any galil or ak-74 mag, it only takes a few days use for them to look all beat to hell. I don't have any aluminum mags anymore though.

I just hope the pmags prove themselves over the long term.
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Post by Wicked »

Here's my plastic Glock mag story:

I was working at a retail gun store in Charleston, SC waaaay back in the day, before the A.W.B. of 1994. When the new Glock 19 first appeared I just had to have one. As wind of the ban came our way, I started stocking up on Glock 19 mags. I bought over 100 (pre-ban with the square notch) at somewhere between $8 to 9 each. I've sinces sold off most of 'em, making a killing at up to $75 each during the ban. I should have sold them all. Every one of those I have left are cracked. The plastic overmold has cracked and broken out between the round count holes and none of them will drop free and most have delaminated so badly they are unusable. These were never loaded, much less left loaded. I really now just have a bunch of followers, springs and baseplates, without bodies. So much for long-term plastic mags. Wish I had bought a Beretta so I would have that many good steel mags.

Now, am I sour on plastic mags? Not on your life. I think the Mag-puls are the best thing since sliced bread, I have a crate full of them. Only time (lots of time) will tell if they hold up. Any of these I leave loaded are stored with the tops on them though. I don't care that Mag-pul says they're safe to leave loaded without them, how would they know? 'Cause they had some stored for a year or two and the feedlips look OK? Not good enough for me. These aren't proven by enough years yet.

This time, I've stocked up on good old aluminum GI mags too; just in case.
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Post by Black »

I usually have 7 mags ready to roll at all times, but once every couple of months I'll use them for range ammo and cycle in new rounds. I know that doesn't really answer your question, but that's an option you might look at. That way you can take the tension off of the mag and replace it with new ammo. I'm sure leaving the mags loaded for a long period of time wouldn't hurt, but I'm also paranoid.
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Post by Diomed »

Wicked wrote:I was working at a retail gun store in Charleston, SC waaaay back in the day, before the A.W.B. of 1994. When the new Glock 19 first appeared I just had to have one. As wind of the ban came our way, I started stocking up on Glock 19 mags. I bought over 100 (pre-ban with the square notch) at somewhere between $8 to 9 each. I've sinces sold off most of 'em, making a killing at up to $75 each during the ban. I should have sold them all. Every one of those I have left are cracked. The plastic overmold has cracked and broken out between the round count holes and none of them will drop free and most have delaminated so badly they are unusable. These were never loaded, much less left loaded. I really now just have a bunch of followers, springs and baseplates, without bodies. So much for long-term plastic mags. Wish I had bought a Beretta so I would have that many good steel mags.
:shock:

And people think I'm weird for regarding Glocks as disposable guns. I'm not convinced the frames won't suffer degradation of the polymer, just like those mags.
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Post by silencertalk »

Springs will weaken if loaded past their fatigue limit. With a typical material, you want to stay below 40% stress to material strength ratio.

So the question is... what magazines when fully loaded are below 40%?

I don't know. An AR15 mag should be. Some pistol mags probably are not.
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Post by stymie »

You can get away with full storage on a single stack mag in general, but that doesn't apply to a double.
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Post by ThePatriot »

Diomed wrote:
Wicked wrote:I was working at a retail gun store in Charleston, SC waaaay back in the day, before the A.W.B. of 1994. When the new Glock 19 first appeared I just had to have one. As wind of the ban came our way, I started stocking up on Glock 19 mags. I bought over 100 (pre-ban with the square notch) at somewhere between $8 to 9 each. I've sinces sold off most of 'em, making a killing at up to $75 each during the ban. I should have sold them all. Every one of those I have left are cracked. The plastic overmold has cracked and broken out between the round count holes and none of them will drop free and most have delaminated so badly they are unusable. These were never loaded, much less left loaded. I really now just have a bunch of followers, springs and baseplates, without bodies. So much for long-term plastic mags. Wish I had bought a Beretta so I would have that many good steel mags.
:shock:

And people think I'm weird for regarding Glocks as disposable guns. I'm not convinced the frames won't suffer degradation of the polymer, just like those mags.
Yeah, I think your weird. Lets say hypotheically that in fifteen years from now all of my glocks had cracked, warped, or broken any other way, it would have been worth it because for those fifteen years I had handguns that served my needs better than any other on the market. Now do I think that will happen? I wouldn't bet on it. :wink:
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Post by silverbulletexpress »

As and experiment I left a fully loaded original Colt 1911 45 mag outside under a shed open on all four sides for a year. After a year I stuck in in my pistol and it fired all 7 rounds no problem.
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Post by silencertalk »

silverbulletexpress wrote:As and experiment I left a fully loaded original Colt 1911 45 mag outside under a shed open on all four sides for a year. After a year I stuck in in my pistol and it fired all 7 rounds no problem.
Of course - it was designed by a smart guy, but that is not necessarily true of all 8 round mags. They were designed by someone trying to prove they know more when in fact they don't.
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Post by J Krammes »

I have 2 PMags with 5/07 date code on them They have been loaded with 30 rounds since then, and still function fine and drop free. One has the cover on and the other is in the gun. I also have a bunch of Brownells mags with the CS springs. 2 are loaded with 28 rounds for about a year or two. They work, but they are tighter in the mag well. I got my HK USP .45 in 1999 and have had at least 2 10 round mags loaded the whole time. The only issue I have ever had with that gun was the slide not staying back on the last shot twice. I also have right around 10,000 rounds through that gun. You can keep you Glocks... :P I'll stick with HK. :wink:

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Post by silencertalk »

It is NOT true that chrome silicon magazine springs are more resistant to taking a set than all stainless steel or music wire. I wish I could say that I am surprised this false marketing claim took hold, but sadly in the past I believed it as well. That is, until I researched it.

Springs have a characteristic called the proportional limit. When you compress a spring, you add stress. When the spring deforms, that is strain. Normally there is a proportional ratio between stress and strain. If you continue to deform the spring past a certain point, this ratio is no longer proportional and you have reached the limit for taking a permanent deformation (set). For three types of springs commonly used in guns, Music Wire (ASTM A228), Chrome-Silicon Valve Spring Quality (ASTM A877), and 17-7 PH stainless - the stress limit is 45% of the minimum tensile strength on the material certification.

For music wire, the range of the tensile strength property is 230-399 KSI. For chrome silicon, it is 235-300 KSI. For 17-7 PH, it is 235-335 KSI.

http://www.tribology-abc.com/calcula..._materials.pdf

One cannot make a general statement about any of these materials without knowing the exact tensile strength of the specific material the spring maker used. You can see they have overlapping strengths, so without further information, they can be considered about the same.

One brand may make a better choice on post-winding stress relieving, or some post-processing such as shot peening, but one thing is clear – the BEST music wire is stronger than the BEST chrome-silicon. This is because with the higher tensile strength, 45% of that will be a higher stress value that one can impart before there is disproportionate strain resulting in a permanent set. Music wire wins the ‘resistance from set’ argument.

So why does chrome silicon exist? Music wire is limited to 250 degrees F. In a car engine, the temperature exceeds that. Chrome silicon wire is used for valve springs for this reason. It is more resistant to taking a set AT TEMPS ABOVE 250 degrees. Needless to say, firearm magazine springs do not reach this temperature and recoil springs likely never will either (AR extractor springs may). And if you want to go above the 475 degree F limit of chrome silicon, there are stainless alloys. They cost more, but have similarly high proportional limits as chrome silicon.

There is also an issue of fatigue strength. This is the ability to resist damage that occurs from cycle loading. Cycles are often measured in thousands or millions, and are not that important for magazine springs. They are important for recoil springs. Does chrome silicon wire outperform music wire for fatigue strength? No, it is worse. Music wire has a cleaner surface – and surface defects can reduce fatigue strength.

http://tinyurl.com/c9hdqu

“Music Wire:
Due to superior surface quality, these can withstand higher stresses under repeated loading than any other spring material.â€
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Post by smcharchan »

Robert: that was great. I have read your previous info regarding the same subject, but this is even better.

I print and keep some info that I come upon on this site as well as other informative sites. What you just wrote will end up in my binder so I can go back and revisit it as needed.

Thanks!
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Post by KLM »

This question pops up from time to time on gun boards. I've yet to see any stories of real life problems with mag spring degradation surface given in response.

Although, I've also yet to see anyone address questions of creep (or stress relaxation) and stress corrosion cracking.

Creep is primarily a concern in high temp applications but is also a function of stress. Same with stress relaxation. Proper material selection should negate any stress corrosion cracking issues. I suspect these effects are largely negated with proper engineering.

Whenever we hear statements claiming "X is 1000 times better than..." our marketing BS meters should be pegged.

Most times there are just too many variables in engineering a product to narrow its performance down to one factor such as material selection.
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Post by Diomed »

ThePatriot wrote:Yeah, I think your weird. Lets say hypotheically that in fifteen years from now all of my glocks had cracked, warped, or broken any other way, it would have been worth it because for those fifteen years I had handguns that served my needs better than any other on the market. Now do I think that will happen? I wouldn't bet on it. :wink:
In that case, they'd be disposable guns. You use them, then they wear out and you dispose of them. Which can happen with any gun, but usually not for many decades if it's not a piece of s--t.

It's good that they're cheap, less inclination to get attached to them.
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Post by ThePatriot »

Like I said, I really don't think that will happen. I was just mainly making the point that they are the best handguns for me (and many others). I knew when I replied what your response would be. I only used that hypothetical situation under the pretense that you were correct in saying they are disposable, not because I believe they are.
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Post by Diomed »

I'm really eager to see what they look like after fifty or sixty years of exposure to sunlight, temp swings, solvents, etc. Are there any plastics that aren't brittle and falling apart after that long?
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Post by ThePatriot »

Only time will tell. I won't be around long enough to see mine age that much, but some guys are already 20+ years in.
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Post by mx201er »

I have a friend that has one of the original glocks, i think first but maybe second generation.. werent those made in the 80s? so almost thirty years later now and it has over 60,000 rounds through it. he doesnt use it much anymore but it still shoots great :) im sure after that many rounds some of the parts were replaced but thats not different from any other pistol.. i like em anyways :D wouldnt trade it for a thing
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