Solar power???

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bakerjw
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Solar power???

Post by bakerjw »

So has anyone here worked with solar panels much? I have been looking into possibly building panels but with their proliferation have then started leaning toward positioning systems as a way of increasing daily output.
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ThePatriot
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Post by ThePatriot »

Given the current solar panels commonly available, by the time you make your money back in energy saved their effective life will be nearly over. This depends on weather and other things. In the future good solar panels will be available for a reasonable price just like anything else. It is like most things, when they first come out rich people buy them and we wait for the price reduction.
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Post by Crosshair »

I have some for emergency power, enough to charge AA batteries. I have really tried to crunch the numbers, but it just isn't worth the effort for home use.
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arrowshot
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Post by arrowshot »

I was really giving this system a look the other day.

http://www.mysolarbackup.com/playvideo.html

I depends on what you are out to do. Wire your whole house or just as an emergencyh supply. I have a smaller system than this one (Sunsystem) and it is good to run some basic stuff with one battery. If I were to wire in two batteries it will be much more capable. I have two 60 watt panels. Again this is an emergency supply that I charge up every month. It sould run a few lights or some other low wattage items but is not meant for much else. Better to have something than nothing. I really like the 1800 system though. Not sure about next year but I got 1/3 off the price I payed for a wood burning insert this year. Same for any energy efficient system investment (air condition, roofing, etc.).
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Post by fstbk65 »

I've been looking at windmills as an alternative. At least enough to charge car batteries since most things can be adapted to run from them. Plus they charge in any light so long as there is a breeze. Of course if you live in a valley or cove it may be useless to you. I've seen them all over the country not just on a commercial scale but on private ranches out west as well. You could even build one yourself out of an alternator so the cost would be low.
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Post by arrowshot »

fstbk65 wrote:I've been looking at windmills as an alternative. At least enough to charge car batteries since most things can be adapted to run from them. Plus they charge in any light so long as there is a breeze. Of course if you live in a valley or cove it may be useless to you. I've seen them all over the country not just on a commercial scale but on private ranches out west as well. You could even build one yourself out of an alternator so the cost would be low.
Just like solar it depends on where you live as to how effective it will be. Windmills also work in the dark! :)
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Re: Solar power???

Post by arrowshot »

bakerjw wrote:So has anyone here worked with solar panels much? I have been looking into possibly building panels but with their proliferation have then started leaning toward positioning systems as a way of increasing daily output.
bakerjw,
Here is something else for simple solar that I ran across today:
http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/01/a_s ... lar_p.html
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Post by Dweezil »

I have a 4.2KW Utility intertie system on my house. It works REALLY well and there are a lot of state/federal tax incentive programs where I live. Basically, it's a $30K system (installed) that, after all the tax credits, Utility company grants etc is only costing about $8K. I live in the desert Southwest, with lots of sunlight and very high electric bills, so it won't take long to amortize this investment. Were you looking at a full time, whole house system or just a small, emergency backup system? For off the grid systems, your long term expense/hassle is actually the battery storage system, not the panels. Check with a local contractor. It may be more feasible than you think. A gun site is probably not the best place to gather solar info. Just sayin'. :lol:
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Post by bakerjw »

I work as a system test engineer so I do extensive research before pulling the trigger on anything technical. I ask here because many of the members have very good input on a wide variety of subjects.

I'll probably pick up a pair of panels to charge a 24V battery bank. That is what I need for running my house control PLC system as well as running a220VAC inverter to run our well pump. If the SHTF and civilization falls into disarray at least we will have water in the house
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Post by smcharchan »

I installed a solar power system on my RV.

My recommendation would be to do much of the work yourself. Doing so will force you to understand the components and how the system works. It took a lot of time to do the research, but I'm glad I did it myself.
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Post by johndoe3 »

smcharchan,
If you wouldn't mind, could you sketch out roughly your system?

Is it a solar panel(s) to power controller to batteries to inverter end use components? Or are you running end components in 12v or 18v?

Or are you using both 12v DC and 115v AC out from your storage batteries if any?

My interest is in building my own SHTF emergency system with a grid down situation. Not to replace the grid, but to run rechargers for NiMH batteries for LED lanterns for lights, flashlights, and a myriad of other things including charging my laptop. I have a great solar oven and might only want to run the gas furnace if gas is available in grid down. So it would not be a system used regularly, but only in grid down like one might use in an RV for occasional use. My thinking is that it could provide enough creature comforts in a grid down situation to do OK.
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Post by radar »

Out here in South East Alaska there in not much in the way of sun, so you see a lot of home brew micro hydro for cabins, houses and shops. If you can work on an old car you can build a simple 12 volt system.
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Post by withoutremorse42 »

radar wrote:Out here in South East Alaska there in not much in the way of sun, so you see a lot of home brew micro hydro for cabins, houses and shops. If you can work on an old car you can build a simple 12 volt system.
I'm just a few miles north of you in Psg, and have seen a number of homebrewed solar/hydro/wind systems. Really seems best to go with a mixed approach. As soon as we get a rain powered generator, SE Alaska is self sufficient.
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Re: Solar power???

Post by CalvinRay »

bakerjw wrote:So has anyone here worked with solar panels much? I have been looking into possibly building panels but with their proliferation have then started leaning toward positioning systems as a way of increasing daily output.
Hello friend I know thread is bit old but in my opinion these panels are not worth.. Very expensive with little efficiency.
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Re: Solar power???

Post by whiterussian1974 »

CalvinRay wrote:
bakerjw wrote:So has anyone here worked with solar panels much? I have been looking into possibly building panels but with their proliferation have then started leaning toward positioning systems as a way of increasing daily output.
Hello friend I know thread is bit old but in my opinion these panels are not worth.. Very expensive with little efficiency.
Agreed. Low Return on Investment. System will fail before it repays cost in most Regions.
Solar Heating (water, passive gain, etc) works great, cheap and easy. Photovoltaics are unreasonable except for Commercial Use in High Intensity/Low Cloud cover Regions.
BUT, charging batteries for lighting LEDs is a low power consumption option.
Why would you want to use laptop when grid is down? I like porn too, but REALLY! :lol:
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Re: Solar power???

Post by Baffled »

I was looking through a "Northern Equipment" catalogue yesterday. They have a large assortment of alternate energy gadgetyr, and the solar stuff was shockingly expensive, thousands and thousands of dollars, plus batteries, inverters, all the crap needed to make it work. On the next page were little Honda generators for $399 that deliver 25X the power and will run 12 hours on a couple gallons of fuel.

IMO, it's a lot easier to store a bit of fuel for SHTF, and for long term, MAKE the damned fuel.

I would agree though that one small panel to recharge radios, batteries, might not be a bad idea. But trying to get a few kilowatts out of a panel of silicon is not cost effective.
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Re: Solar power???

Post by bakerjw »

The one thing that most people overlook is the need for water. You may have a house full of food and the weaponry to protect it all but once you run out of water you have to go out into the world. to me, solar power has nothing to do with cost effectiveness and everything to do with preparing for a collapse scenario. I have no consideration for ROI as the return for me would be supplying the basics. With a 220V system in the house, I would be able to run our well pump during the day to give us access to water and probably have enough to keep the deep freeze cold overnight. With a battery storage system I might be able to even keep the refrigerator going as well. It's not about anything but water and cold storage.

I know many have BOBs and a place in the woods to hide out, but a lot of people are going to be looking to hide out as well. You might get to your cabin on some property that you own only to find that someone else is already there and more than willing to take a shot at you.
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Re: Solar power???

Post by doubloon »

bakerjw wrote:... to me, solar power has nothing to do with cost effectiveness and everything to do with preparing for a collapse scenario. ...
Spot on for this forum ...

Even so, recent advances have been made in solar cell efficiency which would make it even more desirable to me for a survival/preparedness scenario. It's getting more efficient and compact, meaning more portable.

24% efficient
http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details ... 100014390/

40+% efficient ... sorta
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Re: Solar power???

Post by eastern_hunter »

Indeed the time to pay off is not short, but the value of reduced dependency is substantial.

We have a larger grid tied installation with battery backup ... 9+kw panels and >20kwh battery. Good exposure to the sun. System has weathered two winters and many grid outages in our rural area. Has made 27+ MwH in 17 months.

Other advantage is that the process forces one to evaluate the power one uses ... and the insulation of the house.

I would suggest that is always worthwhile to have a hand pump on the well if at all feasible.

On the positive side lower costs will increase with EPA intervention in fuels usage. On the negative side, both man-made and CME induced EMP could disable such systems. No ... not cheap. Cost reductions due to state and federal tax rebates are helpful.
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Re: Solar power???

Post by LostintheAOs »

Sorry for dragging up an old thread. Over the past 2 years my father in law and I planned out and installed a grid tie system for his cabin in the north woods. We have around 1500w of solar and around 1800-2000w of wind power. All of it goes to a bank of 24 deep cycle marine batteries. He has it set up currently so that there is only a trickle to the batteries through the charge controller, and the rest to the grid. In event of an EMP the charge controllers will fry, but they are relatively easy to swap out, so not a big deal. When he's at the cabin he uses grid power. All the electronics are EMP shielded when he's not there (though when they're in normal use they're vulnerable, since there is "exposed" wiring). Really as long as he's not up there using it when an EMP happens the system is safe. The main purpose of it is a SHTF scenario, and we don't see too many issues with using it as such. As has been said ROI is the least of his/our concern, as having power when the grid goes down is what we wanted to have.
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Re: Solar power???

Post by Capt. Link. »

I'm glad this thread was revived.There is some some misinformation about costs and returns as it depends on many factors.John brought up tracking to increase total output over the day.The aiming of panels vs output is getting better all the time with technologies that allow high output at extreme angles and low light conditions. Kendorf or C channel is the standard in the trade for building frames for solar and making them pivot is not difficult.A screw type garage door opener can drive a large display.A tracking system to control the motors can be built for about ten bucks today and angle adjustment is only needed a few times a year.If you are good with your hands and can turn a wrench self installation combined with a tracking system will save you thousands plus speed up the return investment by about 50%. The mark up on "green technologies" is sky high so buying direct in bulk drives the cost down.If you have the time and know how building panels from solar cells will reduce the cost by a huge factor as well.The construction is not difficult or expensive if you source the components well.
The next is how you hook them up and use them.If you live in suburbia you have little reason for a bank of batteries.You still can have a battery system that is small with a minimal investment for a electric cooler & keeping the phone charged ham shack etc.The way you have the system wired and for what voltage makes a difference on auxiliary equipment and its cost as well.My point is voltage and the choice of AC or DC makes a difference if the load wires are long or if its a off grid,suburban or a emergency solar system.These choices add up in money spent and power wasted.If you are running a emergency system 12vdc is normal,a off grid system can be run on higher voltage DC with local converters at lower cost for items that require ac. A home grid tie system requires a adjustable frequency converter to match the electric company's and the voltage fed to it changes the cost of every converter.
For many money is to be made if you turn off the power drain at home and tap into that huge star we see most days.You really need to do a in depth analysis to see if you can benefit or not.Its a investment just like stocks and bonds you need to decide if its a good one.A builder/handy man can save major dollars while someone who needs a turn key set up not as much.
A big question for many of you is why dose a gunsmith have any knowledge on this subject.I used to work in the electronics field while I was in the service.I also worked as a construction electrician and my education as a ham radio operator are contributing factors.I have set up remote charging systems for repeater systems to allow emergency communications when the power is down including wind power.
PS.For EMP protection use a coaxial cable with .001pf high voltage caps tied between the shield and the conductor on both ends of the cable.This also reduces reactance to near zero for ground leads.
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Re: Solar power???

Post by silencertalk »

I signed a contract last night to put in a system with between 36 and 72 LG-315 panels and SolarEdge inverters.

I am being measured today to see how many I will end up with. The incentives in my state are huge - you get paid about $250 for each MW you generate for the first 10 years, and that is on top of getting the power.
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Re: Solar power???

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silencertalk wrote:I signed a contract last night to put in a system with between 36 and 72 LG-315 panels and SolarEdge inverters.

I am being measured today to see how many I will end up with. The incentives in my state are huge - you get paid about $250 for each MW you generate for the first 10 years, and that is on top of getting the power.
Congratulations on your wise investment Robert.
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Re: Solar power???

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I my country, the government decided to subsidize solar-power on a basis of "1 for 1" return, that is: You get paid the same price for every Kwh you "sell" to the grid as the Kwh you "buy" This is way above market-price, so the government taxes that to all the poor sods that ONLY BUY from the grid.
Also the law states a maximum of 6KW power-limit on a "1 for 1" system connected to the grid.

about 3 years ago I built a system with a panel capacity of 7,5KW - with an inverter that is electronically limited to 6KW -and connected to the grid. I "sell" around 4 -5 MWh per year, so in effect I "pay" for slightly more than half of my electricity bill, with my own solar-power .. That is well worth the investment. I will start making a profit on it in less than 7 years from now.

In actual fact this "1 to 1 -deal" was too expensive to continue for the state, so they shut it down only a few months after I set up my system, and now there is virtually no point in setting up solar-power at this level for private individuals. Fortunately for me, those of us that "got on the gravy-train" in time, are allowed to keep the subsidized 1-1 deal :mrgreen:

I ordered 8 extra 250W panels, and have a setup of 4 with a small wind-turbine and a Lithium battery setup (18kwh LiFePo's from an abandoned EV conversion project :oops: ) at my "SHTF retreat" and 4 panels set up without grid connection at my mobile "Summer cabin" (Converted 30' tractor-trailer) with 4 deep-cycle marine batteries.

I did the grid connected part of my solar setup because it was too good a deal to pass up, and it will allow me to set up a self-contained system in a SHTF situation.
I strongly believe that access to energy will one of the main problems, if not THE problem in a likely SHTF scenario -- To that effect I have not permanently mounted the solar power system at my "Retreat" it is stored deep underground and not connected to external wiring, in order to avoid getting it fried in an EMP/Solar flare. The only thing that is externally connected is a small solar panel to trickle charge the Lithium batteries, and that only gets connected when I'm at the retreat .. The LiFePo's will last for years even without this.

IMHO we have become so "adapted" to using energy in the form of electricity, that it will be very hard to feed and protect your family in a SHTF situation without some form of electrical power, and generators use fuel and make noise and fumes. Oil-based Fuel will be a rapidly depleting resource in a SHTF situation. Exhaust fumes will give away the precise location of my underground retreat, even if I can conceal the noise. My solar panels can be set up so they are only really visible from the air, the only problem being concealing the wires.
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Re: Solar power???

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DKDravis wrote:I my country, the government decided to subsidize solar-power on a basis of "1 for 1" return, that is: You get paid the same price for every Kwh you "sell" to the grid as the Kwh you "buy" This is way above market-price, so the government taxes that to all the poor sods that ONLY BUY from the grid.
---
generators use fuel and make noise and fumes... Exhaust fumes will give away the precise location of my underground retreat, even if I can conceal the noise. My solar panels can be set up so they are only really visible from the air, the only problem being concealing the wires.
This is the problem w Govt manipulation of the Economies. Residential Output doesn't pay for transmission lines or grid-system maintenance, yet is paid 100% as if they did.
---
A Wood-gas generator operating below ground b/t a bunker/cellar and the surface exhaust combine aspects of each variable to make it an excellent option for many. Little noise, fumes, visible or IR signature. Plus it serves as a ventilator by sucking air through the Shelter to provide O2 to the generator. The waste heat can be harvested for water heating (used for cooking, space heating, washing, etc) from a water filled jacket. You can rig an exhaust turbine to increase efficiency, muffle sound, disperse IR, etc.

The downside is needing to cube the fuel and remove ash/restock feed-stock.

FEMA has Pubs on how to make and maintain them. They're best employed on vehicles like tractors where the engine vibration helps churn the fuel source and sift any ash.
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