proof of ownership requirements ?

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imyomama
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proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by imyomama » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:25 am

Allright , so i've always been told that you have to carry a copy of the form 4 with all your cans everywhere you go..

is this true ? , secondly if it is , would a "soft" copy be good enough ?

By this I mean would keeping pictures of the forms on your phone be proof enough ?

thoughts? facts ?? ....
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MV10
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by MV10 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:09 pm

When I first joined here, there was a big discussion on the subject already underway. Being new to NFA, it was one I watched closely. I gathered that most folks just keep a photocopy with the device, and the original goes into a safe. The best idea I saw was to use a photocopier to miniaturize the form to a more convenient size.

There was a certain amount of arguing about how to interpret whether or not you're required to keep a copy handy (and who can demand to see it, and so on), but it isn't like Xerox machines are some exotic, rare technology. As "safe bets" go, this one seems like a relatively minor hassle.
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doubloon
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by doubloon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:10 pm

Facts ... (internet worthy facts at least)

In Texas it is a defense against prosecution because all NFA are "prohibited weapons". A copy of your paperwork makes it not worth their while to haul you in for simple possession since it won't stick.

Thoughts ...

A soft copy is probably OK for any reasonable LEO encounter.

I carry paper because most LEO I know like something tangible they can hang onto when they call it in. Plus, I don't really like the idea of voluntarily surrendering my cell phone which will have god knows what kinds of picture on it.

ETA: battery problems when you most need it ... has this ever happened to you? :mrgreen:
Last edited by doubloon on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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MV10
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by MV10 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:12 pm

doubloon wrote:Plus, I don't really like the idea of voluntarily surrendering my cell phone which will have god knows what kinds of picture on it.
That was you?

http://www.gainesville.com/article/2012 ... 109/sports

(P.S. Only in Florida would this show up in the "Sports" section.)
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doubloon
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by doubloon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:14 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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imyomama
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by imyomama » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:48 pm

MV10 wrote:
doubloon wrote:Plus, I don't really like the idea of voluntarily surrendering my cell phone which will have god knows what kinds of picture on it.
That was you?

http://www.gainesville.com/article/2012 ... 109/sports

(P.S. Only in Florida would this show up in the "Sports" section.)
OMG .. some people just have to take it to extremes!

Seriously though , once you have so many nfa items that go in and out of range bags , out at the range in windy conditions etc .. it's possible that some of these copies may just fly off the bench and vanish .... I have pics of all my forms on my phone so as "at least a backup" if the copy of the form happens to have disappeared in transport .. I can still show "a" copy if I get stopped .... cans are easy as they have pouches , but SBR's are more tricky .

realistically , does a LEO even have the right to even question what is appropriate proof of legal ownership ? they are not ATF ! they are not even federal law enforcement...

And if they were to confiscate such items .. they would be in violation of the law..

hum.........
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:23 pm

imyomama wrote:
OMG .. some people just have to take it to extremes!

Seriously though , once you have so many nfa items that go in and out of range bags , out at the range in windy conditions etc .. it's possible that some of these copies may just fly off the bench and vanish .... I have pics of all my forms on my phone so as "at least a backup" if the copy of the form happens to have disappeared in transport .. I can still show "a" copy if I get stopped .... cans are easy as they have pouches , but SBR's are more tricky .

realistically , does a LEO even have the right to even question what is appropriate proof of legal ownership ? they are not ATF ! they are not even federal law enforcement...

And if they were to confiscate such items .. they would be in violation of the law..

hum.........
Easy solution, minimize to 50% and laminate each form. then put those forms UNDER that hard plastic bottom on the inside bottom of most range bags or in a pocket and forget about them, if you need them they are there, if you don't they are still there.

OR you can do what my buddy does, put a scan of each form on a geek stick with a keyring on it, and attach it to the rangebag.

In the execution of his duties if a law enforcement officer believes something is illegal he has an obligation to look into it and full right to.

LEGALLY the ATF and IRS are the only ones that can demand your forms, but the LEO can arrest you for not showing proving it is legally owned by you, your defense against prosecution in many jurisdictions IS your form as in many states NFA items are illegal....without proper federal registration. Do you want to wait for the ATF to get you out of jail because you were too bullheaded to show a cop a form so he can be on his way? They take their time with that kind of stuff.

If they confiscate it in the execution of their duties as a law enforcement officer it is not a violation of the law, it is police evidence at that time, until proof is provided that there is no commission of a crime.

If asked for your form don't be Kwik2Sue, you don't need a weapons charge on your record, even if it is dropped it can cause problems down the road for you! Show the form and go about your business so he can do the same.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by doubloon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:16 pm

What he said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

imyomama
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by imyomama » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:00 pm

don't get me wrong , I typically have a hard copy with me , and I've never been asked to show it or pulled over for that matter....

besides a shrunk photo-copy is not more proof than a picture.. I can have photoshoped Obama 's personal signature just as easy ...

most people that own NFA don't want to rock the boat and risk loosing the privilege. I'm one of them !

my question was more directed as to what is "documented" as acceptable .

a photocopy unless notarized in ink does not seem to provide any more credibility then a picture...

is there any written ATF statement in regards to this ?
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:28 pm

imyomama wrote:don't get me wrong , I typically have a hard copy with me , and I've never been asked to show it or pulled over for that matter....

besides a shrunk photo-copy is not more proof than a picture.. I can have photoshoped Obama 's personal signature just as easy ...

most people that own NFA don't want to rock the boat and risk loosing the privilege. I'm one of them !

my question was more directed as to what is "documented" as acceptable .

a photocopy unless notarized in ink does not seem to provide any more credibility then a picture...

is there any written ATF statement in regards to this ?
You won't get PULLED OVER. Therre are plenty of people that are questioned about it.

A shrunken version is proof enough to not get you booked and in a cell while the original or full size copy is provided. Thats why you should keep a copy online, then you simply login and print the copy show it and leave.

You would be surprised but most NFA guys DO rock the boat, that is my experience more often than not!

It provides enough credibility that you probably won't be assaulted enroute to the police department if they still don't believe you.

What would the ATF have to say about it? They said that a 50% reduced copy of the form is legal proof. Whether or not Fuzz believes it or not is another story. But at the same time there are cops out there that don't believe the Form4 to be real and wait till the ATF shows up to back down.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by rogerme » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:53 pm

Whats makes anybody think the majority of LE's have a understanding of a stamped form much less one done on a trust?
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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:09 pm

rogerme wrote:Whats makes anybody think the majority of LE's have a understanding of a stamped form much less one done on a trust?
They don't but it looks official so that backs down a majority of them.

"Here is my approved ATF ownership form" just about every cop I know knows ATF 99% of the time trumps local policia.

If it looks official they will step down big time and they won't be as aggressive. In my experience they always start out ready to take you out, then when you show them the forms they relax and if they still have doubt they get clarification.

FFL doesn't mean anything to most cops either but as soon as they read the header they say "CARRY ON".

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by jaredr » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:32 am

Bendersquint wrote:They don't but it looks official so that backs down a majority of them.
exactly.

I keep a binder with a photocopy of every form i have for any nfa weapons in my inventory and just keep it in the bottom of my range toolbox along with a copy of my ffl. i've never had any LE interaction (aside from demos, and they all knew what i had was lawfully posessed) while I had any NFA items in my possession, but I've transported items in checked luggage many times and having an orderly, well-organized stack of paperwork puts everyone more at ease.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:39 am

If you treat it like no big deal it will be reacted to like it is no big deal.

We are our own worse enemy, and the people that stand on the soap box of "Only ATF and IRS can see my form, I don't have to show it to you" are the leaders of the movement! We do this to ourselves.

Take a minute and educate the officer and good chance that the next guy will have it a bit easier.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by rockman96 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:46 pm

jaredr wrote:I keep a binder with a photocopy of every form i have for any nfa weapons in my inventory and just keep it in the bottom of my range toolbox along with a copy of my ffl.
This is the best/easiest solution IMO. I do the same.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Gagtoe » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:23 pm

I put Magpul grips on my SBR and my other AR pistols for reason to keep a smaller copy in there. I toss some copies in my range bag as well.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:25 pm

Gagtoe wrote:I put Magpul grips on my SBR and my other AR pistols for reason to keep a smaller copy in there. I toss some copies in my range bag as well.
I have my Form1 wrapped around the barrel under the forearm on my MP5 and in the pistol grips on all the AR's. I forgot they were in there!

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Billsail » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:20 am

Just to be sure I also carry a copy of my trust with the Form 4's. The weapons belong to the trust and the trust says I am the trustee.

JMTC

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Kramer » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:41 am

jaredr wrote: I keep a binder with a photocopy of every form i have for any nfa weapons in my inventory and just keep it in the bottom of my range toolbox along with a copy of my ffl. ...well-organized stack of paperwork puts everyone more at ease.
Same here. I have a three ring binder with copies of all my Forms in page protectors that I stick in my range bag, plus I have a copy of my LLC/Corp documents in the binder as well.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by continuity » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:06 pm

imyomama wrote:...realistically , does a LEO even have the right to even question what is appropriate proof of legal ownership ?...
Groan... I don't have the energy right now to get into this again.
doubloon wrote:... it is a defense against prosecution because all NFA are "prohibited weapons"...
This
Bendersquint wrote:...
In the execution of his duties if a law enforcement officer believes something is illegal he has an obligation to look into it and full right to.

LEGALLY the ATF and IRS are the only ones that can demand your forms, but the LEO can arrest you for not showing proving it is legally owned by you, your defense against prosecution in many jurisdictions IS your form as in many states NFA items are illegal....without proper federal registration. Do you want to wait for the ATF to get you out of jail because you were too bullheaded to show a cop a form so he can be on his way? They take their time with that kind of stuff.

If they confiscate it in the execution of their duties as a law enforcement officer it is not a violation of the law, it is police evidence at that time, until proof is provided that there is no commission of a crime.
And this... an especially concise breakdown. Nice articulation bro.
Bendersquint wrote:If asked for your form don't be Kwik2Sue, you don't need a weapons charge on your record, even if it is dropped it can cause problems down the road for you! Show the form and go about your business so he can do the same.
More applause.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by No2sc2 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Any copy is fine as long as you can clearly read the ATF CONTROL NUMBER.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:51 pm

No, not any copy is fine. ATF put guidelines out saying no smaller than 50% size. Gotta find the documentation for that, i have it around here somewhere.

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by jeepjon » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:10 pm

I took my forms, reduced them to 5*7 on a color copier (so that it looks more legit with my color picture on there and the tax stamp serial number is easier to read), and got them laminated. I have 3 copies of these laminated forms. One in my "class III bag" that holds my 2 silencers, my SBR, and my 22 pistol (host for the 22 can), one set in my range bag, and one set for grabbing if I need.
These 5*7 are a nice, easy to read size while not being bulky and they fit in the side pocket on my bag. The thicker professional laminating makes them pretty hard to beat up as well.

I haven't been pulled over/questioned about my class III stuff yet...but a word of advice as I do work in public safety (medical side, not LEO).

Police don't go around "looking for hairs to split". If you're a reasonable person, with reasonable proof, not doing anything stupid...then you'll most likely be fine. I'm sure somebody will quote some stories about how their brother got arrested and his silencer/SBR/MG confiscated when he wasn't doing anything wrong...but even if true, that is not the majority of interactions with most LEOs.
Be polite, don't be your own worst enemy (good advice from Bender). Taking reasonable measures to copy your form will most likely get you by with most LEOs. If there are questions, don't be argumentative. LEOs are people, and 99% are similar to the rest of people in that they are reasonable, good, hard working...just trying to keep us safe. Don't make their life harder and they won't make your life harder.

Maybe I'm not the most well versed on the intricacies of the Title 2 firearms world, but I think reasonable common sense would dictate that with something usually seen as illegal, it would make sense to have a hard and soft copy on you (just in case).

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Re: proof of ownership requirements ?

Post by renegade » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:46 pm

No2sc2 wrote:Any copy is fine as long as you can clearly read the ATF CONTROL NUMBER.
Depends upon who you are showing it to.

A LEO who us NFA savvy might be fine seeing a PDF version on a smart phone, while one who is not may not be happy unless he physically feels the stamp.

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