Does a trust REALLY skip NICS?

[DanielWilson]

There's a claim out ... that using a trust to purchase an NFA device makes a NICS check unnecessary. Also that someone legally purchased a suppressor in a state other than that of his residence. All it took was a $10 notary at a Mailboxes, etc..

Sounds like a pack of lies to me. Am I right?

[Libertarian_Geek]

Lies

[doubloon]

Trust and LLC skip CLEO signature, photographs and fingerprints all other rules apply.

[rimshaker]

NICS check might be technically unnecessary, but most dealers still do it before you can leave with your toy.

[Wahnsinn]

Just the opposite.

Trust/Corp = NICS required when you pick up the item

Individual = no NICS required when you pick up the item

[doubloon]

CHL skips NICS in Texas

AFAIK a 4473 is filled out for all firearms

[WC]

In AL the 4473 is filled out but no NICS call is made.

[renegade]

There's a claim out ... that using a trust to purchase an NFA device makes a NICS check unnecessary. Also that someone legally purchased a suppressor in a state other than that of his residence. All it took was a $10 notary at a Mailboxes, etc..

Sounds like a pack of lies to me. Am I right?

This is correct. NFA transfers do not require a NICS check. Per 4473:



BATFE is trying to fix by requiring Trusts to submit to Fingerprints, photos like an individual.

[Jt.kline19]

In AL the 4473 is filled out but no NICS call is made.

If its an Individual transfer it skips it. But trust or LLC require a NICS check according to the law. Unless you can get exempted from the check your CCW if it is consider sufficient as a background check by the ATF. Just cause the dealer doesn't do it doesn't make it legal, but it kind of contradictory if you look at the 4473 it say its exempt, look at question 22 not making any mention on the type of transfer approved by the ATF.
But the actual NFA handbook the ATF has publish specifically states the type of transfers that are exempt. If you ask me the law is poorly written, and clashes but that is what it is.

[Jt.kline19]

There's a claim out ... that using a trust to purchase an NFA device makes a NICS check unnecessary. Also that someone legally purchased a suppressor in a state other than that of his residence. All it took was a $10 notary at a Mailboxes, etc..

Sounds like a pack of lies to me. Am I right?

This is correct. NFA transfers do not require a NICS check. Per 4473:



BATFE is trying to fix by requiring Trusts to submit to Fingerprints, photos like an individual.

look at Sections 9.12&9.12.1
that should clear this up
http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... pter-9.pdf

[renegade]

In AL the 4473 is filled out but no NICS call is made.

If its an Individual transfer it skips it. But trust or LLC require a NICS check according to the law.

No according to the law it is NOT required.

(s)(1) Beginning on the date that is 90 days after the date of enactment of this subsection and ending on the day before the date that is 60 months after such date of enactment, it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer a handgun (other than the return of a handgun to the person from whom it was received) to an individual who is not licensed under section 923, unless—

(E) the Attorney General has approved the transfer under section 5812 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986;

The breakdown in the system here was BATFE allowing Corps/Trusts to bypass the fingerprints/photos/BG Check. Why they did that I do not know, but it pre-dates NICS.

[renegade]

There's a claim out ... that using a trust to purchase an NFA device makes a NICS check unnecessary. Also that someone legally purchased a suppressor in a state other than that of his residence. All it took was a $10 notary at a Mailboxes, etc..

Sounds like a pack of lies to me. Am I right?

This is correct. NFA transfers do not require a NICS check. Per 4473:



BATFE is trying to fix by requiring Trusts to submit to Fingerprints, photos like an individual.

look at Sections 9.12&9.12.1
that should clear this up
http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... pter-9.pdf

No that is incorrect and is what is causing the confusion. Check the Law, CFR, FFL Newsletter, and the 4473. Those are all correct.

[Jt.kline19]

How is this causing confusion it straight from the regulation authority. If I'm not mistaken isnt the link i presented part of 27 CFR 479.90? I know what the 4473 says about transfer, but this publication also conflicts with it, and that was what I was pointing out.

[renegade]

How is this causing confusion it straight from the regulation authority. If I'm not mistaken isnt the link i presented part of 27 CFR 479.90? I know what the 4473 says about transfer, but this publication also conflicts with it, and that was what I was pointing out.

As I said it causes confusion because it is wrong. That is not the CFR. I already posted the US Code, here is ther CFR:

27 CFR 478.102 - Sales or deliveries of firearms on and after November 30, 1998.

(d) Exceptions to NICS check. The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall not apply if—
(1) The transferee has presented to the licensee a valid permit or license that—
(i) Allows the transferee to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm;
(ii) Was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and
(iii) The law of the State provides that such a permit or license is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by the transferee would be in violation of Federal, State, or local law: Provided, That on and after November 30, 1998, the information available to such official includes the NICS;
(2) The firearm is subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act and has been approved for transfer under 27 CFR part 479; or
(3) On application of the licensee, in accordance with the provisions of § 478.150, the Director has certified that compliance with paragraph (a)(1) of this section is impracticable.

ETA:

Might as well add the FFL Newsletter notice too, but the USCode/CFR is really the only thing that matters (see Procedures after approval, top right column):

[yamatitan]

One of my dealers does the nics check the other I just fill out the 4473. I use a trust for all my nfa! Another dealer I used one time didnt do the nics check either. So yea wether its required or not is argueable but the fact is a bunch of dealers dont do it.

[DanielWilson]

So ... with a trust ... you still have to fill out a form ... some form ... and send to the BATF for approval, right? In order to buy a new silencer from a dealer.

Even if it isn't a NICS check, there is a background check that is more time-consumed and presumably more detailed than a NICS check, right?

I'm not saying there SHOULD be. Just trying to see whether the guy claiming this is telling the truth.

[renegade]

So ... with a trust ... you still have to fill out a form ... some form ... and send to the BATF for approval, right? In order to buy a new silencer from a dealer.

Even if it isn't a NICS check, there is a background check that is more time-consumed and presumably more detailed than a NICS check, right?

I'm not saying there SHOULD be. Just trying to see whether the guy claiming this is telling the truth.

No, that is the system they moving to. It should be I place by the end of the year.

[Libertarian_Geek]

...All concealable weapons (pistols) were also legally register in my name at police stations or FFL’s. Unfortunately, are you aware that I obtained class III weapons (suppressors) without a background check thru NICS or DROS completely LEGALLY several times? I was able to use a trust account that I created on quicken will maker and a $10 notary charge at a mailbox etc. to obtain them legally. Granted, I am not a felon, nor have a DV misdemeanor conviction or active TRO against me on a NCIC file. I can buy any firearm I want, but should I be able to purchase these class III weapons (SBR’s, and suppressors) without a background check and just a $10 notary signature on a quicken will maker program? ....

For those that may not have made the connection, this OP's questions are most likely a reference to the comments in the manifesto of Chris Dorner. You know, the current far left bat-s--t crazy fugitive who's currently wanted for murder.

[L1A1Rocker]

So, when I get back my approved Form 1 to make a silencer under my Trust; who do I see about running a NICS check on myself?

[doubloon]

No pictures please!

[Abiqua]

From the NFA Handbook, revision Apr 2009:

9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application
requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association,
trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a
partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the
Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60
in the ATF FAQs.

[renegade]

So, when I get back my approved Form 1 to make a silencer under my Trust; who do I see about running a NICS check on myself?

Exactly. Enjoy it while you can, the trust haters plan to change thing by the end of the year.

[L1A1Rocker]

So, when I get back my approved Form 1 to make a silencer under my Trust; who do I see about running a NICS check on myself?

Exactly. Enjoy it while you can, the trust haters plan to change thing by the end of the year.

Really the only reason I went the trust rout was because of a petty, very tiny little sheriff that would be king (I'm not kidding, Tom Cruise is bigger than ol sheriff Rusty) won't sign off on silencers. I've got four Form 1s done as individuals but was forced to go the Trust rout. As long as the ATF does away with the antiquated CLEO sign off, it should all be good.

[No2sc2]

There's a claim out ... that using a trust to purchase an NFA device makes a NICS check unnecessary. Also that someone legally purchased a suppressor in a state other than that of his residence. All it took was a $10 notary at a Mailboxes, etc..

Sounds like a pack of lies to me. Am I right?

This is correct. NFA transfers do not require a NICS check. Per 4473:



BATFE is trying to fix by requiring Trusts to submit to Fingerprints, photos like an individual.

In NFA handbook, FFL are suppose to conduct NICS when item is picked up if a Trust or corps was used. I can find ruling if needed.

[renegade]

There's a claim out ... that using a trust to purchase an NFA device makes a NICS check unnecessary. Also that someone legally purchased a suppressor in a state other than that of his residence. All it took was a $10 notary at a Mailboxes, etc..

Sounds like a pack of lies to me. Am I right?

This is correct. NFA transfers do not require a NICS check. Per 4473:



BATFE is trying to fix by requiring Trusts to submit to Fingerprints, photos like an individual.

In NFA handbook, FFL are suppose to conduct NICS when item is picked up if a Trust or corps was used. I can find ruling if needed.

You won't find such a ruling. You will find a blurb in the NFA handbook stating this. Abiqua alreayd posted it, above.

The NFA Handbook is incorrect on this.