Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

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No2sc2
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Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by No2sc2 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:53 pm

So I got curious. After thinking about this, I think its good to go but I want to get you guys expert opinions. So I'm SBRing a MP5. I want to keep it as original as bread loft. Could I engrave ANYWHERE on the receiver? Could I engrave where it would require an accessory to be removed to see? Pretty much I'm trying to hide this bitch. Could I engrave here, please look at picture below. Its on the receiver but you won't see it unless you remove the trigger housing. Marked in purple..

Image

So if thats not legal, then how is it legal for people to mount scopes and red dot on top of MP5 because MP5 serial and engravings are on top of the receiver so basically you would have to remove it like you would have to remove the trigger housing. Just like registered SEARS, they are marked but you can't see the serial unless it was removed from inside of the AR lower.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by No2sc2 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:11 pm

ALso one more question. I know thats ONCE A RIFLE, ALWAYS A RIFLE! Does this apply to SBR too? Say I form 1 a MP5 into SBR. Could I later call NFA and de-register the MP5 SBR and return it back to pistol or it could never be de-register?

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:23 pm

No2sc2 wrote:So I got curious. After thinking about this, I think its good to go but I want to get you guys expert opinions. So I'm SBRing a MP5. I want to keep it as original as bread loft. Could I engrave ANYWHERE on the receiver? Could I engrave where it would require an accessory to be removed to see? Pretty much I'm trying to hide this bitch. Could I engrave here, please look at picture below. Its on the receiver but you won't see it unless you remove the trigger housing. Marked in purple..

Image

So if thats not legal, then how is it legal for people to mount scopes and red dot on top of MP5 because MP5 serial and engravings are on top of the receiver so basically you would have to remove it like you would have to remove the trigger housing. Just like registered SEARS, they are marked but you can't see the serial unless it was removed from inside of the AR lower.
Where it says PADDLE MAG is acceptable as long as it is whole unobstructed from view.

Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.

You can't compare engravings on a sear to that of a receiver. There were special permissions given for sears since in order for them to be installed they would be hidden from view.

The entire reason WHY you have to have it engraved in a wholly unobstructed view is to prevent the following quote from happening.
No2sc2 wrote:Pretty much I'm trying to hide this bitch

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:24 pm

No2sc2 wrote:ALso one more question. I know thats ONCE A RIFLE, ALWAYS A RIFLE! Does this apply to SBR too? Say I form 1 a MP5 into SBR. Could I later call NFA and de-register the MP5 SBR and return it back to pistol or it could never be de-register?
If you de-register your short barreled RIFLE, then it returns to rifle configuration meaning you need to replace the pistol length barrel with a rifle length barrel.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Eldos1 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:12 pm

I marked my 53 clone on the mag well (left side), but a .223 has more room. Just reuse the serial number from manufacture to keep down the extra engraving. HK also uses the top spine as a place for model number and serial. Just be careful of future optic mount location so it is not covered.

The general rule is if it starts as a pistol, then it can become a rifle (or sbr w/ Stamp) and go back. The "Thompson Contender" rule that is also fallowed by AR (pistol) lowers. You can write to BATF for clarification.
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:51 pm

Eldos1 wrote:I marked my 53 clone on the mag well (left side), but a .223 has more room. Just reuse the serial number from manufacture to keep down the extra engraving. HK also uses the top spine as a place for model number and serial. Just be careful of future optic mount location so it is not covered.

The general rule is if it starts as a pistol, then it can become a rifle (or sbr w/ Stamp) and go back. The "Thompson Contender" rule that is also fallowed by AR (pistol) lowers. You can write to BATF for clarification.
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html
NO don't write the ATF for clarification, we don't need any more rulings.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by No2sc2 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:35 pm

I'll just engrave infront of magwell... Maybe I'll find a good spot when it comes in.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:56 pm

No2sc2 wrote:I'll just engrave infront of magwell... Maybe I'll find a good spot when it comes in.
Over the weld?

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by No2sc2 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:37 pm

Not over the weld but on top and under. The weld would be the "dividing" line. I'll have my trust info on top of the weld and my city/state on bottom of it. People will have to turn the gun Sideways to read it.. I'm not familiar with the gun but once I get it, I'll figure out a good spot but right now, I'm thinking in front of the magwell.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:46 am

No2sc2 wrote:Not over the weld but on top and under. The weld would be the "dividing" line. I'll have my trust info on top of the weld and my city/state on bottom of it. People will have to turn the gun Sideways to read it.. I'm not familiar with the gun but once I get it, I'll figure out a good spot but right now, I'm thinking in front of the magwell.
You know that the weld is a vertical weld right? Right down the middle of the mag well. How are you going to engrave it, it will be pretty tight fit.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by rjacobs » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:45 am

Bendersquint wrote: Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.
I just spoke with Mike Otte at Knob Creek about a possible MM5 pistol build that I would Form 1 when I got it back. He stated he would engrave it exactly where the OP is asking about(purple area) where the stock would cover it when installed(not lower where the trigger assembly would cover it). You say this is illegal. The way I have read the reg is as long as its a "simple accessory that can be removed with basic tools"(or something to that extent) than its legal. Lots of guys have SBR's engraved on the magwell and then put one one of those mag grips on the gun which covers their SBR engraving.

So unless I misunderstood where he was talking about engraving it(I dont think I did since he physically had the gun in hand and pointed to the area UNDER where the stock slides on the back), and I trust what he says(not that I dont trust you B), and from what I know about AR15 SBR's(way more familiar with them than HK weapons) as long as the engraving can be see when removing simple accessories that require basic tools or no tools to remove than they are kosher as far as the ATF is concerned. I believe the rear stocks on HK's like the MP5 is with a push pin, although to be fair I dont have much time around HK's.

I mean what about the guys with AR15 SBR's that engrave the barrel under the hand guards because they dont want to engrave their lower? The hand guards cover the engraving. Is this illegal? Since the ATF specifically permits this to be done, I cant see how its illegal?

Just trying to wrap my head around this since I am getting conflicting answers from two people who I believe know the laws and are well respected in the industry.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by eric10mm » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:53 am

Bendersquint wrote: Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.
And yet that very spot was approved as a marking location in the past. :roll:

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:50 pm

rjacobs wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.
I just spoke with Mike Otte at Knob Creek about a possible MM5 pistol build that I would Form 1 when I got it back. He stated he would engrave it exactly where the OP is asking about(purple area) where the stock would cover it when installed(not lower where the trigger assembly would cover it). You say this is illegal. The way I have read the reg is as long as its a "simple accessory that can be removed with basic tools"(or something to that extent) than its legal. Lots of guys have SBR's engraved on the magwell and then put one one of those mag grips on the gun which covers their SBR engraving.

So unless I misunderstood where he was talking about engraving it(I dont think I did since he physically had the gun in hand and pointed to the area UNDER where the stock slides on the back), and I trust what he says(not that I dont trust you B), and from what I know about AR15 SBR's(way more familiar with them than HK weapons) as long as the engraving can be see when removing simple accessories that require basic tools or no tools to remove than they are kosher as far as the ATF is concerned. I believe the rear stocks on HK's like the MP5 is with a push pin, although to be fair I dont have much time around HK's.

I mean what about the guys with AR15 SBR's that engrave the barrel under the hand guards because they dont want to engrave their lower? The hand guards cover the engraving. Is this illegal? Since the ATF specifically permits this to be done, I cant see how its illegal?

Just trying to wrap my head around this since I am getting conflicting answers from two people who I believe know the laws and are well respected in the industry.
Unfortunately you can not compare what is acceptable in an AR15 to what is acceptable for an MP5.

Just because some manufacturer does it and hasn't got in trouble for it doesn't mean it follows guidelines, also you have to take into account thats manufacturers get marking variances to mark outside the normal or accepted standards all the time, we have 3 ourselves.

ATF states that "The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view." Wholly unobstructed from view has been interpreted many times in the past as not having to remove anything to see the required markings.

The definition makes it clearer. The definition of wholly unobstructed is "completely free from obstructions". If you have to remove something in order to completely see it then you are removing the obstruction and it is certainly not conspicuously in plain view.

What you also need to think about is that even with clear guidelines in place that individuals will be individuals and most individuals in my experience dont nvestigate whether or not something is prohibited and they just do it. So in this case you can not compare what the regulations says versus what an individual does.

I really dont think any manufacturer wants all the required markings on their wares, if it were legal to engrave say the mp5 in hidden from view areas i would think that HK would have done so, or colt, Sig etc...

Dont take my word or anyone elses word for this the NFA Handbook is clear on the requirements and you can verify them yourself.... NFA Handbook section 7, identification of firearms. Published documentation always trumps personal interpretations.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:59 pm

eric10mm wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.
And yet that very spot was approved as a marking location in the past. :roll:

So was replacing baffles and having spare parts for silencers...... Unfortunately things change and these are a few examples of such change.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by No2sc2 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:05 pm

rjacobs wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.
I just spoke with Mike Otte at Knob Creek about a possible MM5 pistol build that I would Form 1 when I got it back. He stated he would engrave it exactly where the OP is asking about(purple area) where the stock would cover it when installed(not lower where the trigger assembly would cover it). You say this is illegal. The way I have read the reg is as long as its a "simple accessory that can be removed with basic tools"(or something to that extent) than its legal. Lots of guys have SBR's engraved on the magwell and then put one one of those mag grips on the gun which covers their SBR engraving.

So unless I misunderstood where he was talking about engraving it(I dont think I did since he physically had the gun in hand and pointed to the area UNDER where the stock slides on the back), and I trust what he says(not that I dont trust you B), and from what I know about AR15 SBR's(way more familiar with them than HK weapons) as long as the engraving can be see when removing simple accessories that require basic tools or no tools to remove than they are kosher as far as the ATF is concerned. I believe the rear stocks on HK's like the MP5 is with a push pin, although to be fair I dont have much time around HK's.

I mean what about the guys with AR15 SBR's that engrave the barrel under the hand guards because they dont want to engrave their lower? The hand guards cover the engraving. Is this illegal? Since the ATF specifically permits this to be done, I cant see how its illegal?

Just trying to wrap my head around this since I am getting conflicting answers from two people who I believe know the laws and are well respected in the industry.
Thats what I thought... Just like people putting scopes and stuff ontop of MP5, that would cover the serial. Also people with registered sears, its technically covered till you remove the parts to take out the sear to show serial #.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by No2sc2 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:08 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
rjacobs wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.
I just spoke with Mike Otte at Knob Creek about a possible MM5 pistol build that I would Form 1 when I got it back. He stated he would engrave it exactly where the OP is asking about(purple area) where the stock would cover it when installed(not lower where the trigger assembly would cover it). You say this is illegal. The way I have read the reg is as long as its a "simple accessory that can be removed with basic tools"(or something to that extent) than its legal. Lots of guys have SBR's engraved on the magwell and then put one one of those mag grips on the gun which covers their SBR engraving.

So unless I misunderstood where he was talking about engraving it(I dont think I did since he physically had the gun in hand and pointed to the area UNDER where the stock slides on the back), and I trust what he says(not that I dont trust you B), and from what I know about AR15 SBR's(way more familiar with them than HK weapons) as long as the engraving can be see when removing simple accessories that require basic tools or no tools to remove than they are kosher as far as the ATF is concerned. I believe the rear stocks on HK's like the MP5 is with a push pin, although to be fair I dont have much time around HK's.

I mean what about the guys with AR15 SBR's that engrave the barrel under the hand guards because they dont want to engrave their lower? The hand guards cover the engraving. Is this illegal? Since the ATF specifically permits this to be done, I cant see how its illegal?

Just trying to wrap my head around this since I am getting conflicting answers from two people who I believe know the laws and are well respected in the industry.
Unfortunately you can not compare what is acceptable in an AR15 to what is acceptable for an MP5.

Just because some manufacturer does it and hasn't got in trouble for it doesn't mean it follows guidelines, also you have to take into account thats manufacturers get marking variances to mark outside the normal or accepted standards all the time, we have 3 ourselves.

ATF states that "The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view." Wholly unobstructed from view has been interpreted many times in the past as not having to remove anything to see the required markings.

The definition makes it clearer. The definition of wholly unobstructed is "completely free from obstructions". If you have to remove something in order to completely see it then you are removing the obstruction and it is certainly not conspicuously in plain view.

What you also need to think about is that even with clear guidelines in place that individuals will be individuals and most individuals in my experience dont nvestigate whether or not something is prohibited and they just do it. So in this case you can not compare what the regulations says versus what an individual does.

I really dont think any manufacturer wants all the required markings on their wares, if it were legal to engrave say the mp5 in hidden from view areas i would think that HK would have done so, or colt, Sig etc...

Dont take my word or anyone elses word for this the NFA Handbook is clear on the requirements and you can verify them yourself.... NFA Handbook section 7, identification of firearms. Published documentation always trumps personal interpretations.
It does state it clearly but I think they meant covered permanently.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:34 pm

No2sc2 wrote:
rjacobs wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.
I just spoke with Mike Otte at Knob Creek about a possible MM5 pistol build that I would Form 1 when I got it back. He stated he would engrave it exactly where the OP is asking about(purple area) where the stock would cover it when installed(not lower where the trigger assembly would cover it). You say this is illegal. The way I have read the reg is as long as its a "simple accessory that can be removed with basic tools"(or something to that extent) than its legal. Lots of guys have SBR's engraved on the magwell and then put one one of those mag grips on the gun which covers their SBR engraving.

So unless I misunderstood where he was talking about engraving it(I dont think I did since he physically had the gun in hand and pointed to the area UNDER where the stock slides on the back), and I trust what he says(not that I dont trust you B), and from what I know about AR15 SBR's(way more familiar with them than HK weapons) as long as the engraving can be see when removing simple accessories that require basic tools or no tools to remove than they are kosher as far as the ATF is concerned. I believe the rear stocks on HK's like the MP5 is with a push pin, although to be fair I dont have much time around HK's.

I mean what about the guys with AR15 SBR's that engrave the barrel under the hand guards because they dont want to engrave their lower? The hand guards cover the engraving. Is this illegal? Since the ATF specifically permits this to be done, I cant see how its illegal?

Just trying to wrap my head around this since I am getting conflicting answers from two people who I believe know the laws and are well respected in the industry.
Thats what I thought... Just like people putting scopes and stuff ontop of MP5, that would cover the serial. Also people with registered sears, its technically covered till you remove the parts to take out the sear to show serial #.
I don't understand why everyone compares everything NFA to everything NFA. Sears were given a marking variance thats why they can be concealed.

You can not compare what is approved for an MG for what is approved for an SBR or a can.

Variances are there for a reason and approved for manufacturers with good justification.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:50 pm

No2sc2 wrote:
It does state it clearly but I think they meant covered permanently.

If the ATF meant not permanently covered they would have said that and not worded it with terms like 'conspicously' or 'wholly unobstructed'.

By your reasoning you can engrave on the inside of your magwell, under your trigger pack, the inside of your slide or frame, the trunion of the barrel,under your pistol grip, etc....yet none of those are approved locations, all are not conspicuous and are obstructed from view.

By the way my required ATF markings on my MP5 are not covered by the scope mount or brass catcher. The only required markings on the top of the MP5 is the serial number, the rest dont matter to the ATF so they can be covered.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by TEXMEX » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:56 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
No2sc2 wrote:So I got curious. After thinking about this, I think its good to go but I want to get you guys expert opinions. So I'm SBRing a MP5. I want to keep it as original as bread loft. Could I engrave ANYWHERE on the receiver? Could I engrave where it would require an accessory to be removed to see? Pretty much I'm trying to hide this bitch. Could I engrave here, please look at picture below. Its on the receiver but you won't see it unless you remove the trigger housing. Marked in purple..

Image

So if thats not legal, then how is it legal for people to mount scopes and red dot on top of MP5 because MP5 serial and engravings are on top of the receiver so basically you would have to remove it like you would have to remove the trigger housing. Just like registered SEARS, they are marked but you can't see the serial unless it was removed from inside of the AR lower.
Where it says PADDLE MAG is acceptable as long as it is whole unobstructed from view.

Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.

You can't compare engravings on a sear to that of a receiver. There were special permissions given for sears since in order for them to be installed they would be hidden from view.

The entire reason WHY you have to have it engraved in a wholly unobstructed view is to prevent the following quote from happening.
No2sc2 wrote:Pretty much I'm trying to hide this bitch

How are Title 2 marking requirements different than Title 1 marking requirements?

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by No2sc2 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:59 pm

TEXMEX wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
No2sc2 wrote:So I got curious. After thinking about this, I think its good to go but I want to get you guys expert opinions. So I'm SBRing a MP5. I want to keep it as original as bread loft. Could I engrave ANYWHERE on the receiver? Could I engrave where it would require an accessory to be removed to see? Pretty much I'm trying to hide this bitch. Could I engrave here, please look at picture below. Its on the receiver but you won't see it unless you remove the trigger housing. Marked in purple..

Image

So if thats not legal, then how is it legal for people to mount scopes and red dot on top of MP5 because MP5 serial and engravings are on top of the receiver so basically you would have to remove it like you would have to remove the trigger housing. Just like registered SEARS, they are marked but you can't see the serial unless it was removed from inside of the AR lower.
Where it says PADDLE MAG is acceptable as long as it is whole unobstructed from view.

Where it has the purple dykem is not an approved engraving spot because it is obstructed when the stock is installed.

It can not be in a place that is not readily viewed without having to remove anything.

Title 2 marking requirements are different than Title1 marking requirements.

You can't compare engravings on a sear to that of a receiver. There were special permissions given for sears since in order for them to be installed they would be hidden from view.

The entire reason WHY you have to have it engraved in a wholly unobstructed view is to prevent the following quote from happening.
No2sc2 wrote:Pretty much I'm trying to hide this bitch

How are Title 2 marking requirements different than Title 1 marking requirements?
I don't think theres a difference. A form 1 is a form 1. According to NFA handbook, maker and mfg of NFA is the same definition and clearly states that engravings can't be covered. Like I said, how can a SEAR can have that special purpose? I can't find that anywhere in the NFA book. I did find the maker and mfg of NFA which states the requirement for anything that is done under form 1 or form 2.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:16 pm

No2sc2 wrote: I don't think theres a difference. A form 1 is a form 1. According to NFA handbook, maker and mfg of NFA is the same definition and clearly states that engravings can't be covered. Like I said, how can a SEAR can have that special purpose? I can't find that anywhere in the NFA book. I did find the maker and mfg of NFA which states the requirement for anything that is done under form 1 or form 2.
There is a difference, some Title1 markings can be hidden with a proper marking variance, Title2 marking however have alot more scrutiny about a marking variance and some are VERY situational, like with SEARS.

A sear can be engraved differently because they have marking variances on file. Special permission to engrave it elsewhere, only manufacturers are given marking variances with well documented justification.

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Re: Are these spots legal to engrave SBR on MP5?

Post by ryknoll3 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:26 am

The company that did my engraving put the info down the in the channel where the collapsible stock arms ride, which are also the rails where the bolt carrier rides. You can hardly see the engraving unless you're looking for it, but you don't run into any questions about concealing the engraving.

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