NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

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chino-71-zx
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NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by chino-71-zx » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:07 pm

I FINALLY received my tax stamp for my SBR.
I will be carrying a copy of my tax stamp with my SBR
To make life easier for me for those people that just want to
Hassle me and my SBR.
My Question....SHOULD I KEEP A COPY OF MY NFA TRUST
WITH ME AND THE RIFLE ALSO? I LIVE IN TEXAS.
THANKS.

mbogo
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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by mbogo » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:22 pm

There is no need to carry a copy of your trust.

A copy of your Tax Stamp is adequate proof that the item is registered.

mbogo
7 stamps and 1 in jail :mrgreen:

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by L1A1Rocker » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:28 pm

If your trust is titled "John Doe NFA Trust" and you have identification that shows you are John Doe then I doubt a trust is needed for verification. Now if you trust says J.D. NFA Trust you might want to have a trust copy that lists John Doe as the Grantor and/or trustee of the J.D. NFA Trust. Without the trust the cop could conclude that J.D. does NOT stand for John Doe but that it stands for Jack Donaldson.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:05 am

L1A1Rocker wrote:If your trust is titled "John Doe NFA Trust" and you have identification that shows you are John Doe then I doubt a trust is needed for verification. Now if you trust says J.D. NFA Trust you might want to have a trust copy that lists John Doe as the Grantor and/or trustee of the J.D. NFA Trust. Without the trust the cop could conclude that J.D. does NOT stand for John Doe but that it stands for Jack Donaldson.
Exactly what has happened in the past!

Not sure why people don't want to keep documents with them, play the game, keeps your papers with you.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by GHEN » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:23 pm

chino-71-zx wrote:I FINALLY received my tax stamp for my SBR.
I will be carrying a copy of my tax stamp with my SBR
To make life easier for me for those people that just want to
Hassle me and my SBR.
My Question....SHOULD I KEEP A COPY OF MY NFA TRUST
WITH ME AND THE RIFLE ALSO? I LIVE IN TEXAS.
THANKS.
I know we all hear horror stories but the reality is that nowhere that you can legally own an NFA weapon does mere possession of an NFA weapon constitute probable cause. There MAY BE some jurisdictions that require some documentation when you have the device on your person/in vehicle etc., but in the absence of any existing regs the burden is on the govt. not you.

I don't know why some people (not talking to the OP or anyone else in particular) let themselves be pushed around so easily.

GHEN

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by renegade » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:34 pm

GHEN wrote:
chino-71-zx wrote:I FINALLY received my tax stamp for my SBR.
I will be carrying a copy of my tax stamp with my SBR
To make life easier for me for those people that just want to
Hassle me and my SBR.
My Question....SHOULD I KEEP A COPY OF MY NFA TRUST
WITH ME AND THE RIFLE ALSO? I LIVE IN TEXAS.
THANKS.
I know we all hear horror stories but the reality is that nowhere that you can legally own an NFA weapon does mere possession of an NFA weapon constitute probable cause. There MAY BE some jurisdictions that require some documentation when you have the device on your person/in vehicle etc., but in the absence of any existing regs the burden is on the govt. not you.

I don't know why some people (not talking to the OP or anyone else in particular) let themselves be pushed around so easily.

GHEN

The above is incorrect for Texas. In Texas, an NFA firearm is contraband, and its mere existence is probable cause for an arrest. NFA registration will almost always prevent that from occurring.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:14 pm

renegade wrote:
GHEN wrote:
chino-71-zx wrote:I FINALLY received my tax stamp for my SBR.
I will be carrying a copy of my tax stamp with my SBR
To make life easier for me for those people that just want to
Hassle me and my SBR.
My Question....SHOULD I KEEP A COPY OF MY NFA TRUST
WITH ME AND THE RIFLE ALSO? I LIVE IN TEXAS.
THANKS.
I know we all hear horror stories but the reality is that nowhere that you can legally own an NFA weapon does mere possession of an NFA weapon constitute probable cause. There MAY BE some jurisdictions that require some documentation when you have the device on your person/in vehicle etc., but in the absence of any existing regs the burden is on the govt. not you.

I don't know why some people (not talking to the OP or anyone else in particular) let themselves be pushed around so easily.

GHEN

The above is incorrect for Texas. In Texas, an NFA firearm is contraband, and its mere existence is probable cause for an arrest. NFA registration will almost always prevent that from occurring.
In most states possession of NFA weapons is illegal, your defense against prosecution is an approved federal registration form either Form1 or Form4.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by LawBob » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:16 pm

renegade wrote:
GHEN wrote:
chino-71-zx wrote:I FINALLY received my tax stamp for my SBR.
I will be carrying a copy of my tax stamp with my SBR
To make life easier for me for those people that just want to
Hassle me and my SBR.
My Question....SHOULD I KEEP A COPY OF MY NFA TRUST
WITH ME AND THE RIFLE ALSO? I LIVE IN TEXAS.
THANKS.
I know we all hear horror stories but the reality is that nowhere that you can legally own an NFA weapon does mere possession of an NFA weapon constitute probable cause. There MAY BE some jurisdictions that require some documentation when you have the device on your person/in vehicle etc., but in the absence of any existing regs the burden is on the govt. not you.

I don't know why some people (not talking to the OP or anyone else in particular) let themselves be pushed around so easily.

GHEN

The above is incorrect for Texas. In Texas, an NFA firearm is contraband, and its mere existence is probable cause for an arrest. NFA registration will almost always prevent that from occurring.
You seem to be implying that they can arrest anyone for possession of an NFA firearm. Does that mean they could arrest a fellow law enforcement officer too? If it's contraband, he cannot possess it either. It is a defense to prosecution that he uses an NFA item in his official duties....

They are not contraband. They are simply illegal to possess, except...

The law is this:

Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:

(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;

(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device;
(9) a zip gun; or
(10) a tire deflation device.

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.

(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.

(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct:

(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade knife, springblade knife, short-barrel firearm, or tire deflation device solely as an antique or curio;

(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in Subsection (b); or

(3) was incidental to dealing with a tire deflation device solely for the purpose of making the device available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in Subsection (b).

(e) An offense under Subsection (a)(1), (2), (3), (4), (7), (8), or (9) is a felony of the third degree. An offense under Subsection (a)(10) is a state jail felony. An offense under Subsection (a)(5) or (6) is a Class A misdemeanor.

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a security officer and has received training on the use of the chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:

(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education; or

(2) approved for the purposes described by this subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of Public Safety.

(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002, Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by paper9 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:33 pm

"tire deflation device"?

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by renegade » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:32 pm

LawBob wrote: You seem to be implying that they can arrest anyone for possession of an NFA firearm. Does that mean they could arrest a fellow law enforcement officer too? If it's contraband, he cannot possess it either. It is a defense to prosecution that he uses an NFA item in his official duties....
Yes it is an prohibited weapon and anyone in possession is subject to arrest. Most LEOs use common sense.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:50 pm

renegade wrote:
LawBob wrote: You seem to be implying that they can arrest anyone for possession of an NFA firearm. Does that mean they could arrest a fellow law enforcement officer too? If it's contraband, he cannot possess it either. It is a defense to prosecution that he uses an NFA item in his official duties....
Yes it is an prohibited weapon and anyone in possession is subject to arrest. Most LEOs use common sense.
Lawbob - A customer of ours is a cop in Texas and was detained pending proof of his silencer being lawfully owned. He showed them a badge and the response was along the lines of "who cares what who you work for illegal is illegal, unless its registered.".

Once he provided registration they went on their way.

So yes even fellow LEO are harrassed.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by GHEN » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:38 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
In most states possession of NFA weapons is illegal, your defense against prosecution is an approved federal registration form either Form1 or Form4.
That is not the case at all. They are certainly controlled items but not patently "illegal", if they were you couldn't' own them with our without a tax stamp.

Again, if allowed AT ALL under the laws of the state/locality you are in, mere possession of an NFA item is not probable cause...13 years as a cop as well as a criminal justice instructor, illegal is not the same as controlled.

Sure it is undoubtedly less of a hassle to just show the form but sometimes your rights are worth the hassle...at least to me they are.

GHEN

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Stan1 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:50 pm

When I was a kid I used to fly sailplanes, "gliders" to the uninitiated. I vividly recall a passage from the flight instruction manual. "Unpowered aircraft have the right of way over powered aircraft, but don't insist upon it. It does no good to know you were right in the grave."

I like my freedoms and will fight for eveyone's rights, but if I can show a piece of paper to someone and they leave me alone, so be it.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by GHEN » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:55 am

Stan1 wrote:When I was a kid I used to fly sailplanes, "gliders" to the uninitiated. I vividly recall a passage from the flight instruction manual. "Unpowered aircraft have the right of way over powered aircraft, but don't insist upon it. It does no good to know you were right in the grave."
Great story; unfortunately a horrible analogy. No-one is performing summary executions for suspected possession of improperly registered/owned NFA items; therefore there is no risk of "the grave".
Stan1 wrote:I like my freedoms and will fight for eveyone's rights, but if I can show a piece of paper to someone and they leave me alone, so be it.
I don't just "like" my freedoms, I demands my rights as affirmed under our founding documents. I simply ask that everyone respect the same set of laws. Tyranny doesn't arrive all at once, it arrives in stages and your statement about "show a piece of paper to someone and they leave me alone" has some truly horrific historical precedents.

I am not advocating that you do, or do not do anything. I am just stating that there are some things being advocated here that are not really necessary, and are needless intrusions on your rights.

I know guys that don't leave the house without copies of Forms 4, and trust documents, Articles of Incorporation etc. and then people more like me. I own NFA weapons personally, and my corporation owns NFA weapons. I NEVER leave the house with copies of my ATF paperwork. Have I been asked about it at a public range? Yes...once by an ATF agent and once by an off duty police officer from a different jurisdiction. Both of them inquired about the legality, and the ATF guy made mention of my forms. Neither of them saw any forms and they both went away once I explained to them that that really shouldn't be bothering me and why.

YMMV,

GHEN

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by LawBob » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:55 am

Bendersquint wrote:
renegade wrote:
LawBob wrote: You seem to be implying that they can arrest anyone for possession of an NFA firearm. Does that mean they could arrest a fellow law enforcement officer too? If it's contraband, he cannot possess it either. It is a defense to prosecution that he uses an NFA item in his official duties....
Yes it is an prohibited weapon and anyone in possession is subject to arrest. Most LEOs use common sense.
Lawbob - A customer of ours is a cop in Texas and was detained pending proof of his silencer being lawfully owned. He showed them a badge and the response was along the lines of "who cares what who you work for illegal is illegal, unless its registered.".

Once he provided registration they went on their way.

So yes even fellow LEO are harrassed.
Did he go back to the department to get the registration? Are LEO SBRs "tax stamped"? I didn't think so.

I've never heard of my friend (the cop) who has a 14.5" sbr m4 ever carrying around a tax stamp, or my FBI agent (friend) for his M4 SBR or MP5...

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:09 am

LawBob wrote:
Did he go back to the department to get the registration? Are LEO SBRs "tax stamped"? I didn't think so.

I've never heard of my friend (the cop) who has a 14.5" sbr m4 ever carrying around a tax stamp, or my FBI agent (friend) for his M4 SBR or MP5...
My example was a silencer not an SBR. All LEO NFA weapons are formed through the NFA Branch and records are generally kept in the armory records books.

He dug out the form and they went on their way, he proved to them it was legally owned. He tried to use his badge to get the common courtesy cops expect from each other and hurry them on so he could get back to shooting.

Alot of people don't carry their stamps with them, most make it through without hassle, but I know for me if the "law" wants to create a problem they will and its best to have it on you regardless. Its as simple as carrying a piece of paper and since some states require proof of registrations its your get out of jail card.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by LawBob » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:42 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
LawBob wrote:
Did he go back to the department to get the registration? Are LEO SBRs "tax stamped"? I didn't think so.

I've never heard of my friend (the cop) who has a 14.5" sbr m4 ever carrying around a tax stamp, or my FBI agent (friend) for his M4 SBR or MP5...
My example was a silencer not an SBR. All LEO NFA weapons are formed through the NFA Branch and records are generally kept in the armory records books.

He dug out the form and they went on their way, he proved to them it was legally owned. He tried to use his badge to get the common courtesy cops expect from each other and hurry them on so he could get back to shooting.

Alot of people don't carry their stamps with them, most make it through without hassle, but I know for me if the "law" wants to create a problem they will and its best to have it on you regardless. Its as simple as carrying a piece of paper and since some states require proof of registrations its your get out of jail card.
From my cop buddy:

"It is 14.5 and law enforcement doesn't need any stinking paperwork, we have badges. And an exemption to federal firearms laws."

I guess in Colorado they don't have this issue.

Did your friend need a suppressor (that would seem to be atypical for law enforcement save SWAT or something).? or was that a personal item.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by renegade » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:50 pm

LawBob wrote: From my cop buddy:

"It is 14.5 and law enforcement doesn't need any stinking paperwork, we have badges. And an exemption to federal firearms laws."
If HE wants an exemption, he is free to lobby Congress for one. Till then he can obey existing Federal Law like everyone else, or go to jail if caught like many other LEOs who though Federal Law did not apply to them.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:33 pm

renegade wrote:
LawBob wrote: From my cop buddy:

"It is 14.5 and law enforcement doesn't need any stinking paperwork, we have badges. And an exemption to federal firearms laws."
If HE wants an exemption, he is free to lobby Congress for one. Till then he can obey existing Federal Law like everyone else, or go to jail if caught like many other LEOs who though Federal Law did not apply to them.
Exactly, law enforcement has NO exemptions from federal law!

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by GHEN » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:02 am

Bendersquint wrote:
Exactly, law enforcement has NO exemptions from federal law!
Quite correct, they don't and they shouldn't...creates messy legal precedents.

I know MANY cops that have illegal NFA items...mostly SBRs thinking they're ok. There is no convincing some people they need to be compliant...I have stopped trying.

GHEN

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Dennisrl » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:53 pm

YES. Even the SBR's the special forces use are registered. NOW whether they actually carry the stamp around is doubtful and unlikely but they are still registered with the NFA branch just like personally owned ones.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by renegade » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:05 pm

Dennisrl wrote:YES. Even the SBR's the special forces use are registered. NOW whether they actually carry the stamp around is doubtful and unlikely but they are still registered with the NFA branch just like personally owned ones.
DOD guns usually get an exemption and are not part of the registry. As Govt. owned guns, they are tax-free and do not get stamps.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by L1A1Rocker » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:23 pm

renegade wrote:
Dennisrl wrote:YES. Even the SBR's the special forces use are registered. NOW whether they actually carry the stamp around is doubtful and unlikely but they are still registered with the NFA branch just like personally owned ones.
DOD guns usually get an exemption and are not part of the registry. As Govt. owned guns, they are tax-free and do not get stamps.

Humm, I'm curious. They are done tax free but are they on the registry? My mother is now in possession of my late fathers silencers. They transferred to her, tax free without a stamp, on a Form 5.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:45 pm

Dennisrl wrote:YES. Even the SBR's the special forces use are registered. NOW whether they actually carry the stamp around is doubtful and unlikely but they are still registered with the NFA branch just like personally owned ones.
Nope, they are not registered with the NFA branch.....those rifles carried by SF are machineguns by the way, not SBR's.

They ARE accountable to the DOD, serialized and signed for but not in the NFRTR.

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Re: NFA Trust & tax Stamp readily available??

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:48 pm

L1A1Rocker wrote:
renegade wrote:
Dennisrl wrote:YES. Even the SBR's the special forces use are registered. NOW whether they actually carry the stamp around is doubtful and unlikely but they are still registered with the NFA branch just like personally owned ones.
DOD guns usually get an exemption and are not part of the registry. As Govt. owned guns, they are tax-free and do not get stamps.

Humm, I'm curious. They are done tax free but are they on the registry? My mother is now in possession of my late fathers silencers. They transferred to her, tax free without a stamp, on a Form 5.
No they are not in the registry, nor do they bear a stamp, it an entirely different process they go through.

Your fathers silencers were transferred tax free because of his passing. The Form5 is a tax free transfer, they are still in the registry its just the only way a civilian can get anything NFA without a tax stamp associated.

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