Last day to be grandfathers in from new Trust rules?

[wacki]

Comment period ends Dec. 9th. Any idea what the last day to send in an eForm will be where you can get grandfathered?

[Bendersquint]

Comment period ends Dec. 9th. Any idea what the last day to send in an eForm will be where you can get grandfathered?

Noone knows, nothing has been released or even hinted on.

[paper9]

Dec 9 ends comment period. Then Dec 10 the EA or EO is signed into immediate implementation? Or is there another review peroid after that? I wish I knew more.

[doubloon]

Assuming anything will be grandfathered at all, I don't know that it is a requirement.

[Bendersquint]

There are no federal requirements for grandfathering, its speculation at this point.

There has to be a review period associated with the comment period. If there wasn't then whats the point of the comment period if the comments are not reviewed prior to enacting? (Regardless if the comment period is a formality or not.)

Depends how fast the big chief wants this to go through.

Might be a single day or a year or 2. NOONE knows!

[wacki]

yeah but that's gives me an idea of the wiggle room. So the earliest possible deadline is the 10th of December. That's the info I needed.

Thanks,

[danb35]

So the earliest possible deadline is the 10th of December.

No, it isn't. The earliest possible deadline is the last one that got approved before the rule gets adopted, and ATF says that everybody else already in the pipeline has to comply with the new rule. Will that happen? Nobody knows. Well, maybe some ATF insiders know, but they aren't talking. It seems likely to me that applications already in the pipeline will be grandfathered, but what do I know? If that is the case, then yes, 10 Dec is the earliest the rule change could be made.

[eastern_hunter]

I have forms sent during late Feb and March for trust transfers. Had hoped mine would clear in time ... but am losing hope now. I am not assuming that anything that is not approved before the comment period ends will be "grandfathered."

Am looking for a cooperative CLEO as a result, but will wait until we know for sure to press the issue with any possibles.

I do want and can afford two additional suppressors but will wait until things are better understood before submitting new paper. Is a sad time indeed.

[beanfield33]

Is it possible to cancel a transfer if you've submitted paperwork? I assume if you submit a form 1 or 4 today as a trust without the new requirements (fingerprints, cleo signoff, photo) and come December 10th (or whatever date it goes presumably goes live) they decide not to grandfather requests in the pipeline, then the transfer will go into problem status and an examiner will send the paperwork back requesting the additional requirements. IIRC, they normally state that the transfer will automatically be null and void after 30 days if they receive no response. At the end of that 30 days, do they normally refund your $200 or is that gone?

I have 2 form 1's I'd like to submit ASAP and have an existing trust with NFA items on it. I'd prefer to submit on that trust, but have other items as an individual and am comfortable with that process (my cleo will sign). I'm trying to weight the pros and cons with what little information is available.

[Bendersquint]

Is it possible to cancel a transfer if you've submitted paperwork? I assume if you submit a form 1 or 4 today as a trust without the new requirements (fingerprints, cleo signoff, photo) and come December 10th (or whatever date it goes presumably goes live) they decide not to grandfather requests in the pipeline, then the transfer will go into problem status and an examiner will send the paperwork back requesting the additional requirements. IIRC, they normally state that the transfer will automatically be null and void after 30 days if they receive no response. At the end of that 30 days, do they normally refund your $200 or is that gone?

I have 2 form 1's I'd like to submit ASAP and have an existing trust with NFA items on it. I'd prefer to submit on that trust, but have other items as an individual and am comfortable with that process (my cleo will sign). I'm trying to weight the pros and cons with what little information is available.

Yes you can cancel a form if you change your mind. Yes, the $200 is refunded and can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months for refunding.

I SERIOUSLY doubt they will NOT do a grandfathering.

[RJT]

Is it possible to cancel a transfer if you've submitted paperwork? I assume if you submit a form 1 or 4 today as a trust without the new requirements (fingerprints, cleo signoff, photo) and come December 10th (or whatever date it goes presumably goes live) they decide not to grandfather requests in the pipeline, then the transfer will go into problem status and an examiner will send the paperwork back requesting the additional requirements. IIRC, they normally state that the transfer will automatically be null and void after 30 days if they receive no response. At the end of that 30 days, do they normally refund your $200 or is that gone?

I have 2 form 1's I'd like to submit ASAP and have an existing trust with NFA items on it. I'd prefer to submit on that trust, but have other items as an individual and am comfortable with that process (my cleo will sign). I'm trying to weight the pros and cons with what little information is available.

I don't have an answer to your first question, but with a willing CLEO, why not stick to the trust route, and wait to see who all needs to be printed. If it's done individual, I don't think you can transfer the item into your trust. I may be wrong about that though.

[Bendersquint]

If it's done individual, I don't think you can transfer the item into your trust. I may be wrong about that though.

Yes, he can. Its a taxed transfer though. $200 either way!

If you have individual items you want in your trust and have a happy CLEO then I would transfer them into the trust to enjoy those benefits.

[beanfield33]

If it's done individual, I don't think you can transfer the item into your trust. I may be wrong about that though.

Yes, he can. Its a taxed transfer though. $200 either way!

If you have individual items you want in your trust and have a happy CLEO then I would transfer them into the trust to enjoy those benefits.

Believe me...I've thought about it. I can't justify spending a couple grand getting my existing individual stuff into the trust. I've pretty much just be doing all new NFA purchases/builds with the trust. Depending on what happens with the pending trust changes, I may be going back to individual transfers in the future. It's not worth the hassle for my family members to go through all this nonsense.

[Bendersquint]

If it's done individual, I don't think you can transfer the item into your trust. I may be wrong about that though.

Yes, he can. Its a taxed transfer though. $200 either way!

If you have individual items you want in your trust and have a happy CLEO then I would transfer them into the trust to enjoy those benefits.

Believe me...I've thought about it. I can't justify spending a couple grand getting my existing individual stuff into the trust. I've pretty much just be doing all new NFA purchases/builds with the trust. Depending on what happens with the pending trust changes, I may be going back to individual transfers in the future. It's not worth the hassle for my family members to go through all this nonsense.

If you can get a CLEO signoff then why do the pending changes matter?

[beanfield33]

If you can get a CLEO signoff then why do the pending changes matter?

The other people on my trust (family members with no criminal background) don't want to be bothered with fingerprints, cleo signoff, photos, etc...each time I add something to the trust. I'll either need to drop most of them so I can keep the inheritance assignment of the trust or skip the trust altogether.

[66427vette]

If you can get a CLEO signoff then why do the pending changes matter?

The other people on my trust (family members with no criminal background) don't want to be bothered with fingerprints, cleo signoff, photos, etc...each time I add something to the trust. I'll either need to drop most of them so I can keep the inheritance assignment of the trust or skip the trust altogether.

Wait and see what the come up with no need to panic. The cleo's around Saint Louis are among the best most sign same day or within 48 hours. I send 100's of people a month to them no one has ever had an issue. If people on trust don't want to play by new rules not your problem. It sucks but it is what it is.

[JimB]

If you can get a CLEO signoff then why do the pending changes matter?

The other people on my trust (family members with no criminal background) don't want to be bothered with fingerprints, cleo signoff, photos, etc...each time I add something to the trust. I'll either need to drop most of them so I can keep the inheritance assignment of the trust or skip the trust altogether.

Wait and see what the come up with no need to panic. The cleo's around Saint Louis are among the best most sign same day or within 48 hours. I send 100's of people a month to them no one has ever had an issue. If people on trust don't want to play by new rules not your problem. It sucks but it is what it is.

Are you kidding? You work in the firearms industry and you're comfortable suggesting that people are best served by taking a wait and see approach to new restrictions? The draft rule is available, it is not nearly as long to read as it looks, and even if you think then changes don't affect you directly they undoubtedly cause significant cost increases which will cause ATF to need additional money to function which should offend you just as a taxpayer, but should terrify you because they might decide to ask the legislature to get that money by increasing the tax on NFA items. No need to be paranoid, but like saving for retirement, it's better to get on it early in the process than to bitch about the results at the end when you didn't do anything.

BTW, there are good changes in the proposal for inheritance, at least I think so, but it isn't where I have spent my time.

[66427vette]

Who are you again? Their mind is set . No one knows anything especially a guy with 7 posts.

[JimB]

Who are you again? Their mind is set . No one knows anything especially a guy with 7 posts.

I'm a guy that's spent a long time working on federal regulations. In my experience their mind is not set on all issues and the rule will be modified significantly, so commenting can be very productive. If I'm wrong filing comments does no harm, but if you're wrong then you've not only chosen not to participate in the process but you've convinced a bunch of like-minded folks to do the same. Seems reckless to me, but as long as you have a lot of posts on the internet I'm sure that you know what's best for everyone.

[66427vette]

You should get the word out over on ar15.com. I wrote a letter for your info . Thanks for your hard work.

[Vagabond]

BTW, there are good changes in the proposal for inheritance, at least I think so, but it isn't where I have spent my time.

what changes NEED to be made to the inheritance of NFA firearms? They already transfer, tax-free, on a Form 5 to next of kin or whoever is the designated heir. only thing they could do is say no more Form 5 and background check is needed, but that wont happen. Ever. Since then it would be impossible to track the chain of ownership and keep the register up to date.

[Armorer-at-Law]

BTW, there are good changes in the proposal for inheritance, at least I think so, but it isn't where I have spent my time.

what changes NEED to be made to the inheritance of NFA firearms? They already transfer, tax-free, on a Form 5 to next of kin or whoever is the designated heir. only thing they could do is say no more Form 5 and background check is needed, but that wont happen. Ever. Since then it would be impossible to track the chain of ownership and keep the register up to date.

The good proposed change is that the executor's temporary possession of the estate's NFA items is not considered a "transfer."

The other good thing proposed is to incorporate the "Certificate of Compliance" (a declaration of citizenship or qualification as a resident alien) into the Form 1/4/5 so that a separate form is not needed.

The rest is bad.

[L1A1Rocker]

BTW, there are good changes in the proposal for inheritance, at least I think so, but it isn't where I have spent my time.

what changes NEED to be made to the inheritance of NFA firearms? They already transfer, tax-free, on a Form 5 to next of kin or whoever is the designated heir. only thing they could do is say no more Form 5 and background check is needed, but that wont happen. Ever. Since then it would be impossible to track the chain of ownership and keep the register up to date.

The good proposed change is that the executor's temporary possession of the estate's NFA items is not considered a "transfer."

The other good thing proposed is to incorporate the "Certificate of Compliance" (a declaration of citizenship or qualification as a resident alien) into the Form 1/4/5 so that a separate form is not needed.

The rest is bad.

The executor taking care of the NFA items is not currently considered a transfer.

Edit to add:

It is the responsibility of the executor of the estate to maintain custody and control of the firearms and to transfer the firearms registered to the decedent. The firearms may not be transferred to another party, such as a firearms licensee, for consignment or safekeeping. This would be a transfer subject to the requirements of the NFA. The licensee may assist the executor by identifying purchasers and acting as a broker.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/ ... sfers.html

[Armorer-at-Law]

L1A1Rocker: That was clear in their instructions, but not in the actual rules (regulations). They propose to add a new § 479.90a that would read:

§ 479.90
Estates.

(a) The executor, administrator, personal representative, or other person authorized under state law to dispose of property in an estate (collectively “executor”) may possess a firearm registered to a decedent during the term of probate without such possession being treated as a “transfer” as defined in § 479.11. No later than the close of probate, the executor must submit an application to transfer the firearm to beneficiaries or other transferees in accordance with this section. If the transfer is to a beneficiary, the executor shall file an ATF Form 5 (5320.5), Application for Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration of Firearm, to register a firearm to any beneficiary of an estate in accordance with § 479.90. The executor will identify the estate as the transferor, and will sign the form on behalf of the decedent, showing his or her title and the date of filing. The executor must also provide the documentation prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

(b) If there are no beneficiaries of the estate or the beneficiaries do not wish to possess the registered firearm, the executor will dispose of the property outside the estate (i.e., to a non-beneficiary). The executor shall file an ATF Form 4 (5320.4), Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm, in accordance with § 479.84. The executor, administrator, personal representative, or other authorized person must also provide documentation prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

(c) The executor, administrator, personal representative, or other person authorized under state law to dispose of property in an estate shall submit with the transfer application documentation of his or her appointment as executor, administrator, personal representative, or as an authorized person, a copy of the decedent's death certificate, a copy of the will (if any), any other evidence of his or her authority to dispose of property, and any other documentrelating to, or affecting the disposition of firearms from the estate.