Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

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Don
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Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by Don »

I have my form 1 stamp/approval in hand. I have my digital design completed. I am getting ready to start building but I want to make sure I'm 100% legal when I go over to have a friend help me make my suppressor on his mill that he owns.

I've read numerous times where people have stated that the BATF approves of borrowing a mill or lathe, that you don't have to be the one to do the actual cutting, that as long as you're on the premises or if you're by the machine that it's legal.

Can someone point to anything official from the BATF that I can take with me?
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doubloon
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by doubloon »

The Form 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Don
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by Don »

Ok fair enough, my approved form gives me permission to make and register the firearm. Has there been any ruling on whether I must perform all, some, none of the work myself. I believe it is legal to have someone make it for me, as long as I'm with the person who is making it, but would love to find some official statement that I can give to my friend to set his mind at ease.

I can read plenty of posts that say 'sure it's legal' or 'find someone else who is more comfortable' but I am just looking for some official word posted or printed somewhere as opposed to second hand information.
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doubloon
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by doubloon »

It all goes back to the legalese definitions behind the words "possess", "control" and "transfer".

You can't leave the parts with your buddy while you go out for lunch, even if you leave the form.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/ ... pter-6.pdf
If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm, the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the firearm. If the location is outside the applicant’s State and the firearm being made is a short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device, or an unserviceable machinegun which is being reactivated, the applicant will also need to request permission to transport the firearm interstate as required by 27 CFR 478.28.
ETA: we should probably put this in the silencer FAQ and the Form 1 FAQ if it's not there already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Don
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by Don »

Ah!!! You rock, thank you for the time to answer this question.

Perfect!!

Now, where's your donate button ;-)
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doubloon
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by doubloon »

No need to donate just remember this is in now way, shape or form a substitute for legal advice. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
rodpiper
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by rodpiper »

ATF wrote:as long as the creation or modification was done under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the firearm.
Yikes, a continuous video feed between me and machinist seeing all my parts 24x7 is "direct oversight". Retaining custody and control means you must provide reasonable means of preventing the parts from being outside of your control, thus you could technically watch remotely, continue to watch remotely while you drive on over, and then secure the parts in a small safe that only you have access to and is bolted down to the floor, and then following day go over and open safe for machinist to start work again. And to boot, machinist could leave as long as the safe allowed him to put parts in and close a self-locking door. Ah, the wonderful world of legal jargon.
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Bendersquint
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by Bendersquint »

rodpiper wrote:
ATF wrote:as long as the creation or modification was done under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the firearm.
Yikes, a continuous video feed between me and machinist seeing all my parts 24x7 is "direct oversight". Retaining custody and control means you must provide reasonable means of preventing the parts from being outside of your control, thus you could technically watch remotely, continue to watch remotely while you drive on over, and then secure the parts in a small safe that only you have access to and is bolted down to the floor, and then following day go over and open safe for machinist to start work again. And to boot, machinist could leave as long as the safe allowed him to put parts in and close a self-locking door. Ah, the wonderful world of legal jargon.
Wow, talk about a misinterpretation to fit your needs!
rodpiper
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by rodpiper »

Bendersquint wrote:
rodpiper wrote:
ATF wrote:as long as the creation or modification was done under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the firearm.
Yikes, a continuous video feed between me and machinist seeing all my parts 24x7 is "direct oversight". Retaining custody and control means you must provide reasonable means of preventing the parts from being outside of your control, thus you could technically watch remotely, continue to watch remotely while you drive on over, and then secure the parts in a small safe that only you have access to and is bolted down to the floor, and then following day go over and open safe for machinist to start work again. And to boot, machinist could leave as long as the safe allowed him to put parts in and close a self-locking door. Ah, the wonderful world of legal jargon.
Wow, talk about a misinterpretation to fit your needs!
You see the verbiage one way, I see it many other ways. What it means is, the verbiage is bad.
dustdevil
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by dustdevil »

rodpiper you are misinterpreting the word oversight. Oversight does not mean "I can see something". Oversight the way it was used means having physical control. If you take material to a machinist and you are physically present while he machines your silencer a case can be made you are still in physical control. Once you have left the premises you are not physically in control and possession has been transferred. Video feed would not comply with this.

An example of this is would be a company in Brighton CO sells 80% lower receivers. They also have a cnc machine that will finish machining the receiver. You do not have to place the lower in the machine or know anything about machining. But, you cannot buy the 80% lower and go home and watch it being machined. You have to be physically present. They even have you "run" the program to finish machine the lower. Your physical presence is necessary and mandatory.

This is not a case of I don't understand the law ergo no one else can understand it either.
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Bendersquint
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Re: Form 1 Suppressor and Outsourcing - Subcontracting

Post by Bendersquint »

dustdevil wrote:rodpiper you are misinterpreting the word oversight. Oversight does not mean "I can see something". Oversight the way it was used means having physical control. If you take material to a machinist and you are physically present while he machines your silencer a case can be made you are still in physical control. Once you have left the premises you are not physically in control and possession has been transferred. Video feed would not comply with this.

An example of this is would be a company in Brighton CO sells 80% lower receivers. They also have a cnc machine that will finish machining the receiver. You do not have to place the lower in the machine or know anything about machining. But, you cannot buy the 80% lower and go home and watch it being machined. You have to be physically present. They even have you "run" the program to finish machine the lower. Your physical presence is necessary and mandatory.

This is not a case of I don't understand the law ergo no one else can understand it either.
Well said DD.
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