Carrying around the tax stamp

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Bobaganusche
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Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by Bobaganusche » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:12 am

I just picked up my Octane 45 this week, and it is my first suppressor. While I have been waiting for it, I've been reading up on what I would need to do once I got it, including carrying a copy of my approved Form 4 around wherever I go with the suppressor. However, when I picked it up from the dealer, he told me that I need to carry around the original Form 4, and to keep the copy in a safe place (i.e. with the trust document). I told him that everything I read said to leave the original with the trust document and to carry around a copy, but he said that would likely lead to me getting arrested if I should run into any law enforcement because there would be no way to know if I had forged the copy of the Form 4. So now I am confused as to which I need to bring along when I go to the range. Has anyone ever had to present their Form 4 to an officer, and if so were they satisfied with a copy?
"I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was alive." - Heisenberg

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doubloon
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by doubloon » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:17 am

a copy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
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aggiez28
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by aggiez28 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:32 am

on a federal level, you are not required to keep a copy on you. You dont have to even own a copy or the original period. you can burn it as soon as you get it and still be legal.

It is possible that state or local laws may require it. I have never heard of a place that did though.

I used to carry a copy of forms with guns but no longer do so. if you want to be extra cautious, carry a copy with you

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L1A1Rocker
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by L1A1Rocker » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:46 am

Bobaganusche wrote:I just picked up my Octane 45 this week, and it is my first suppressor. While I have been waiting for it, I've been reading up on what I would need to do once I got it, including carrying a copy of my approved Form 4 around wherever I go with the suppressor. However, when I picked it up from the dealer, he told me that I need to carry around the original Form 4, and to keep the copy in a safe place (i.e. with the trust document). I told him that everything I read said to leave the original with the trust document and to carry around a copy, but he said that would likely lead to me getting arrested if I should run into any law enforcement because there would be no way to know if I had forged the copy of the Form 4. So now I am confused as to which I need to bring along when I go to the range. Has anyone ever had to present their Form 4 to an officer, and if so were they satisfied with a copy?
From the NFA FAQ:


Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nation ... earms.html

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Variable556
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by Variable556 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:49 am

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.



http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... r-evidence

I keep my originals in a waterproof fire box, inside a large fire rated safe. I keep copies seeded everywhere (heck, copies are cheap) so they are handy. I keep one in each item's normal case, and a whole sheaf of them all together in my truck's glove box. That way if I forget or lose one, I always have a handy backup. I've never been asked for one, but it's mighty cheap to have some basic level trouble repellent. :wink:


ETA: I type slow. :lol:
AAC 762-SD, AAC M4-2000 ('06), AAC TiRant 45, Bowers CAC-9, SWR Trident 9, SWR Spectre, YHM Mite....
Ordering next...?

rimshaker
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by rimshaker » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:16 am

Keep the original safe at home and carry copies of course. The examiners write the date, serial#, and their initials on the stamp itself. That alone should be enough for forgery issues.

paper9
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by paper9 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:51 pm

What about electronic copies? Various tablets are 7 inch or bigger and should display the document nicely.
Last edited by paper9 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

edcurtis
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by edcurtis » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:28 pm

On my ARs, I keep a copy of the SBR stamp and suppressor stamp inside the Magpul grip. Takes some folding, but it will fit. :lol:

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HK91
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by HK91 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:46 pm

paper9 wrote:What about electronic electronic copies? Various tablets are 7 inch or bigger and should display the document nicely.
I would never hand my cell phone, laptop, tablet, or other electronic storage device to a LEO without a warrant. If you were to hand a LEO your tablet to look at your F4 copy, what would stop them from looking further? If they seize the device, without your consent you have some protections on what they can do with the device, but if you hand it to them, you just gave up those rights.

Carry a paper copy, even reduce the size to make it easier to carry.

HK91

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by doubloon » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:48 pm

Oi!

I have heard LEOs may or may not accept electronic copies as defense against prosecution but I subscribe to what HK said about willingly handing your electronic life event recording devices over to anyone.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=123787

L1 - How do I handle legal challenges to my suppressor ownership?
If a non-LEO range officer approaches you and demands to see your paperwork, you are not obligated to produce, however, you will most likely be asked to leave. Many silencer users CHOOSE to comply, and merely produce either the paperwork or a copy of the paperwork. Many, many times a silencer user will shoot a session unchallenged even though the range safety officer was aware of the silencer use, but the range officer knew that the items were legally viable within the region and instead did not challenge at all. This is the most common situation.
If a law enforcement officer (LEO) challenges you, the most common response is to produce the requested paperwork. Quite often this will satisfy the situation and it will be completely diffused. However, there have been limited instances where the officers did not fully understand the legalities of his/her region and it took additional time and officer-superior communication to resolve the situation. If this happens, remain calm and understand that you have broken no laws.
A different school of thought is held by some silencer users that the paperwork is a tax document, and therefore out of the jurisdictional purview of the responding police officer. Unfortunately, there are few, few, stories of how such challenges and subsequent noncompliance (legal or otherwise) were resolved.
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dark2023
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by dark2023 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:03 am

I have heard that since the tax stamp is technically a tax document that a normal officer cannot legally require you to show it to them without a warrent.
However, I dont think I would want to test this theory if the legality of my suppressor possession was to come into question.


As far as carrying the copies, yes you do not want you originals to come to harm, keep them at home. My father carries 2/3 size copies of all his stamps in the cases of the guns they correspond to. A lot of small soft rifle cases have pouches or pockets on the outside. these are perfect for a folded copy of your documents.

I have heard people say that it is illegal to make a perfect copy your form 4, I feel like this is untrue, I have never seen any mention of this on the BATFE website though. Again keeping 2/3 size version would cause this to a be a moot point.
A gun is meant to protect your life, not your wallet. Things can be replaced, people cant.

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by doubloon » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:29 am

dark2023 wrote:...
I have heard people say that it is illegal to make a perfect copy your form 4, I f̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ know this is u̶n̶t̶r̶u̶e̶ bullshit, ...
FIFY

You can carry your originals if you want, it's just a pain if something happens to them.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/ ... pter-3.pdf

Section 3.5 Lost or stolen registration documents. A person possessing a firearm registered as required by the NFA must retain proof of registration, that is, the registration form showing registration of the firearm to the person, which must be made available to ATF upon request . ( 26 U.S.C. 5841(e) www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841) If a registrant discovers that a Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6A, or 10 is stolen, lost or destroyed, the registrant must immediately report the theft, loss, or destruction in writing to the NFA Branch. 54 The report must contain the details of the situation. ATF will issue a duplicate copy of the registration document as the circumstances warrant.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:20 am

aggiez28 wrote:on a federal level, you are not required to keep a copy on you. You dont have to even own a copy or the original period. you can burn it as soon as you get it and still be legal.

It is possible that state or local laws may require it. I have never heard of a place that did though.

I used to carry a copy of forms with guns but no longer do so. if you want to be extra cautious, carry a copy with you
I hope you are joking, if you aren't that is by far the worst advice I have seen given on this forum.

So you know, NFA is illegal in Texas, your defense against prosecution is your proof of registration/ownership via the Tax Stamp.

Texas isn't the only state, there are a couple others I just can't remember them this second.

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by LawBob » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:50 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
aggiez28 wrote:on a federal level, you are not required to keep a copy on you. You dont have to even own a copy or the original period. you can burn it as soon as you get it and still be legal.

It is possible that state or local laws may require it. I have never heard of a place that did though.

I used to carry a copy of forms with guns but no longer do so. if you want to be extra cautious, carry a copy with you
I hope you are joking, if you aren't that is by far the worst advice I have seen given on this forum.

So you know, NFA is illegal in Texas, your defense against prosecution is your proof of registration/ownership via the Tax Stamp.

Texas isn't the only state, there are a couple others I just can't remember them this second.
I was just about to say that...

§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;
(5) a switchblade knife;

(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended.


I guess technically you are not required to carry one. You can just present it to the DA when the file criminal charges and get them dismissed. ..

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by doubloon » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:55 pm

LawBob wrote:...
I guess technically you are not required to carry one. You can just present it to the DA when the file criminal charges and get them dismissed. ..
And if you want to play the game telling whoever wants to see them "Bite me. Look it up in the database yourself if you want to know that badly." and I'm sure they will be more than happy to set you up in a semi-private room with all the comforts of a urine soaked alleyway where you can wait while they do just that.

OI!

ETA
By the way, this wasn't a barb at you LB in case you took it that way.

I'm agreeing with you and painting a rosier picture.
Last edited by doubloon on Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bendersquint
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:03 pm

doubloon wrote:
LawBob wrote:...
I guess technically you are not required to carry one. You can just present it to the DA when the file criminal charges and get them dismissed. ..
And if you want to play the game telling whoever wants to see them "Bite me. Look it up in the database yourself if you want to know that badly." and I'm sure they will be more than happy to set you up in a semi-private room with all the comforts of a urine soaked alleyway where you can wait while they do just that.

OI!
And remember in most places they can hold you for 72 hours before charges are filed, so there goes your 3 day weekend or your job etc....

Then once charges are filed because of bull-headed syndrome they can keep you till they get around to verifying with he ATF which from most PD's that I know isn't a priority.

Or you could show them your form and you can enjoy your range day.

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by 66427vette » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:01 pm

Remember when this place was decent ?

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by Kramer » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:58 am

Bendersquint wrote:
aggiez28 wrote:on a federal level, you are not required to keep a copy on you. You dont have to even own a copy or the original period. you can burn it as soon as you get it and still be legal.

It is possible that state or local laws may require it. I have never heard of a place that did though.

I used to carry a copy of forms with guns but no longer do so. if you want to be extra cautious, carry a copy with you
I hope you are joking, if you aren't that is by far the worst advice I have seen given on this forum.

So you know, NFA is illegal in Texas, your defense against prosecution is your proof of registration/ownership via the Tax Stamp.

Texas isn't the only state, there are a couple others I just can't remember them this second.

Same in P.A., illegal unless NFA registered. If a LEO wants to see them... here you go...have a nice day officer.

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by aggiez28 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:37 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
aggiez28 wrote:on a federal level, you are not required to keep a copy on you. You dont have to even own a copy or the original period. you can burn it as soon as you get it and still be legal.

It is possible that state or local laws may require it. I have never heard of a place that did though.

I used to carry a copy of forms with guns but no longer do so. if you want to be extra cautious, carry a copy with you
I hope you are joking, if you aren't that is by far the worst advice I have seen given on this forum.

So you know, NFA is illegal in Texas, your defense against prosecution is your proof of registration/ownership via the Tax Stamp.

Texas isn't the only state, there are a couple others I just can't remember them this second.
no, i am not kidding at all. I was not giving any advice at all..... I was just stating that carrying it is not required.
I am aware of the laws in TX. I agree that carrying it can be a good idea and can help prevent problems. it is not required though.

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by continuity » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:42 am

Make sure you have, on or about you, documentation of your transfer. IMHO, make that a COPY of the transfer. The original should be in a safe place.

Presenting a copy of the transfer "paperwork" provides due diligence in the states that identify NFA stuff as contraband with an "affirmative defense" if possesed in compliance with NA requirements. Yes, in Ohio, in the most the technical sense you may be arrested for possession of NFA item(s). The juristictions prosecutor is going to take a very dim view of such an arrest, if the appropriate NFA documentation is available, especially if it was presented at point of contact. When I say "dim view" I'm saying such an arrest will result in a letter to the arresting jurisdictional office that is pointedly clear on the innapropriatness of the action.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by GHEN » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:34 pm

Bendersquint wrote: So you know, NFA is illegal in Texas, your defense against prosecution is your proof of registration/ownership via the Tax Stamp.
NFA is not illegal in Texas, it is controlled.

GHEN

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:31 pm

GHEN wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: So you know, NFA is illegal in Texas, your defense against prosecution is your proof of registration/ownership via the Tax Stamp.
NFA is not illegal in Texas, it is controlled.

GHEN
Correct, ILLEGAL was the wrong term...... According to the Texas Penal Code they are "PROHIBITED WEAPONS".

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by doubloon » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:58 pm

Possession of a prohibited weapon is illegal and may result in criminal prosecution. Your NFA documents are your defense against prosecution.
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Bendersquint
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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:53 pm

doubloon wrote:Possession of a prohibited weapon is illegal and may result in criminal prosecution. Your NFA documents are your defense against prosecution.
My point exactly.

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Re: Carrying around the tax stamp

Post by ArevaloSOCOM » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:51 pm

Google Drive.............

All Form "Whatevers" are loaded there and can be shown if needed. Done carrying paper.............
NFAtalk.org

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