Dealer wants to keep copy of trust

[rogive]

Haven't used this dealer before but ordered a harvester from them a month or so ago. Received the phone call last week stating the suppressor arrived. Gathered copies of the trust yesterday morning and stopped in to get things rolling. First off their NFA guy wasn't working but the employee that was helping stated they'd need a copy of my DL along with a copy of my trust. I gladly allowed the employee to make a copy of my DL but I questioned him regarding the need to have a copy of the firearm trust guy. He stumbled around the reason and only response was they keep it for cya. My initial thought is I'd rather not have copies of my proprietary info for any Joe employee at the shop for perusal or for their potential use for creation of other trusts. I let it slide for the time being seeing as how I wasn't dealing with the NFA guy and did not provide him a copy.

Previous dealers have completed section 3-12 and sent me on my way. I was responsible for completing the Transferee's sections of the form (2a,b Transferee's name, address, 13,14 Transferee questions, and 15 Transferee's Certification section).

Concerns-
Copy of my proprietary information
Listing of schedule A items and where they are stored
Using trust as template

I’ve read here that the trusts are not part of the dealers ATF audit and SOT’s are not required to keep trust information in their records.

Granted this all might be a misunderstanding but am I wrong in not wanting / potentially allowing the dealer to maintain a copy of the firearms trust?

[YoungBlood]

New here.
You submit copy to BATFE for purchase and have to maintain the original on your own. They (store) have no reason for it per the two places I have done business with. They must be wanting a free copy of working trust or lack knowledge of what BATFE wants. . .

[Bendersquint]

Haven't used this dealer before but ordered a harvester from them a month or so ago. Received the phone call last week stating the suppressor arrived. Gathered copies of the trust yesterday morning and stopped in to get things rolling. First off their NFA guy wasn't working but the employee that was helping stated they'd need a copy of my DL along with a copy of my trust. I gladly allowed the employee to make a copy of my DL but I questioned him regarding the need to have a copy of the firearm trust guy. He stumbled around the reason and only response was they keep it for cya. My initial thought is I'd rather not have copies of my proprietary info for any Joe employee at the shop for perusal or for their potential use for creation of other trusts. I let it slide for the time being seeing as how I wasn't dealing with the NFA guy and did not provide him a copy.

Previous dealers have completed section 3-12 and sent me on my way. I was responsible for completing the Transferee's sections of the form (2a,b Transferee's name, address, 13,14 Transferee questions, and 15 Transferee's Certification section).

Concerns-
Copy of my proprietary information
Listing of schedule A items and where they are stored
Using trust as template

I’ve read here that the trusts are not part of the dealers ATF audit and SOT’s are not required to keep trust information in their records.

Granted this all might be a misunderstanding but am I wrong in not wanting / potentially allowing the dealer to maintain a copy of the firearms trust?

I don't see the issue with them having a copy of it. They have your information on the 4473 on where it is stored and who has it, along with the serial numbers.

On another note, if the NFA guy isn't there and the non-NFA guy is acting odd then why are you not waiting for the NFA guy to affect the transfer? You waited this long for the stamp, is waiting a few more days a problem?

[66427vette]

I keep copy of page that has person picking up item listed on trust.

[rogive]

I don't see the issue with them having a copy of it. They have your information on the 4473 on where it is stored and who has it, along with the serial numbers.

On another note, if the NFA guy isn't there and the non-NFA guy is acting odd then why are you not waiting for the NFA guy to affect the transfer? You waited this long for the stamp, is waiting a few more days a problem?

It wasn't so much an issue with the info contained on the Form 4 but rather the list of other items and serials on the Schedule A they have not assisted the trust in acquiring.

As for the NFA guy not being in, sry wasn't clear, the non-NFA guy stated He would ask the NFA guy to call me when back at work. The NFA guy did call late this afternoon, took my info, and stated the Form 4 would be ready to pickup in the next day or two. He brought up the conversation I had with the non-NFA guy regarding the copy of the trust and said they did not need a copy.

Hopefully I'll have paperwork mailed by end of week.

[Bendersquint]

I don't see the issue with them having a copy of it. They have your information on the 4473 on where it is stored and who has it, along with the serial numbers.

On another note, if the NFA guy isn't there and the non-NFA guy is acting odd then why are you not waiting for the NFA guy to affect the transfer? You waited this long for the stamp, is waiting a few more days a problem?

It wasn't so much an issue with the info contained on the Form 4 but rather the list of other items and serials on the Schedule A they have not assisted the trust in acquiring./quote]

Easy fix, redact the information. Photocopy that page with the Sched A.....sharpie through the identifying information and then recopy it and give that copy.

And if that still doesn't satisfy the request you take further action.

[dsteuber]

I've already mentioned owning a can in other posts. It was done with a Sheriff's signature, fingerprint cards, all that stuff.

This time around, I've had a trust setup for the specific purpose of avoiding all that. I don't yet have any items in the trust and hope that won't be a problem as the can I'm saving for will be the first item in the trust.

Do I have a reasonable expectation that the SOT can walk me through the process of correctly filling out the paperwork and which parts of the trust need to be copied for the ATF? The trust was done through a lawyer that specializes in such things and has been notarized. It just needs to have something in it.

[Bendersquint]

Do I have a reasonable expectation that the SOT can walk me through the process of correctly filling out the paperwork and which parts of the trust need to be copied for the ATF? The trust was done through a lawyer that specializes in such things and has been notarized. It just needs to have something in it.

Yes, the SOT should be filling out ALL of the paperwork.

The COMPLETE Trust is sent in not just this part or that.

[sucker76]

My trust drawn up by a lawyer has schedule A at the end of the document and after all signatures so it is not included or sent to the ATF. I asked and his response was all his trusts are this way and the ATF nor anyone else needs to know what all is on schedule A. I F1 efiled an SBR and paper F4 a can with this trust. So far the SBR stamp is in and waiting on the can.

[dsteuber]

dsteuber wrote:
Do I have a reasonable expectation that the SOT can walk me through the process of correctly filling out the paperwork and which parts of the trust need to be copied for the ATF? The trust was done through a lawyer that specializes in such things and has been notarized. It just needs to have something in it.

Yes, the SOT should be filling out ALL of the paperwork.

The COMPLETE Trust is sent in not just this part or that.

Would that be the original or a copy? I'm thinking of the notarization embossing here and possibly not getting the trust back.

Thanks.

[Bendersquint]

dsteuber wrote:
Do I have a reasonable expectation that the SOT can walk me through the process of correctly filling out the paperwork and which parts of the trust need to be copied for the ATF? The trust was done through a lawyer that specializes in such things and has been notarized. It just needs to have something in it.

Yes, the SOT should be filling out ALL of the paperwork.

The COMPLETE Trust is sent in not just this part or that.

Would that be the original or a copy? I'm thinking of the notarization embossing here and possibly not getting the trust back.

Thanks.

it would be a copy and NO you will not get that copy back.

[dsteuber]

OK. I'm sorted then. Thanks.

[BadKarmaZeroSix]

My trust drawn up by a lawyer has schedule A at the end of the document and after all signatures so it is not included or sent to the ATF. I asked and his response was all his trusts are this way and the ATF nor anyone else needs to know what all is on schedule A. I F1 efiled an SBR and paper F4 a can with this trust. So far the SBR stamp is in and waiting on the can.

If your trust documents have page numbers (like 3 of 10, 4 of 10, etc) and the Sched A is included in those numbered pages, like mine is, you have to submit it. I had a rejected F1 for "incomplete trust documents" because the last page i sent was 13 of 14...the examiner i spoke with told me that if there had been no page numbers, it would have been approved without the schedule...

[sucker76]

Schedule A is not numbered. There is also a separate word document schedule A that is included that I add items to. Mr. Cody said that the ATF and anyone else doesn't need to know what all is in the trust. I add to the word doc when I get a new can or SBR or put ANYTHING into the trust. This way I don't have to notarize any changes.
I talked to 3 NFA lawyers before getting a trust and 2 said ATF doesn't need schedule A and one said his trusts include it.

[Kramer]

They (store) have no reason for it per the two places I have done business with. They must be wanting a free copy of working trust or lack knowledge of what BATFE wants. . .

I have used about four SOTS for NFA items and the last SOT that I dealt with asked me for a copy of my Articles of Incorporation for my LLC. I asked him why and he claimed: "so that he could go over it to make sure that it was legal". I asked him if he was a lawyer and he said no. The stamp came in nine months later, I picked up the MG and he never received a copy of my AOI.


BTW he belongs to the NFATCA.

[Hokie]

I don't yet have any items in the trust and hope that won't be a problem as the can I'm saving for will be the first item in the trust.

Put something in the trust. There was a case where the Settlor died with no property in the trust and the tax stamp had not been issued. The successor Trustee argued that the stamp should be issued to the trust but ATF said it was not a trust since there was no property in it. For this reason my lawyer had me put $10 into the trust immediately.

My trust drawn up by a lawyer has schedule A at the end of the document and after all signatures so it is not included or sent to the ATF. I asked and his response was all his trusts are this way and the ATF nor anyone else needs to know what all is on schedule A. I F1 efiled an SBR and paper F4 a can with this trust. So far the SBR stamp is in and waiting on the can.

If your trust mentions a schedule or document it must be submitted with the trust. So the trust should not say any thing about a schedule of items.

[YugoRPK]

My SOT fills out the form 4 and sends it to me. I send in the paperwork with the form 4, trust copy and the check. Then again. My SOT isnt an idiot.

[whiterussian1974]

I don't yet have any items in the trust and hope that won't be a problem as the can I'm saving for will be the first item in the trust.

Put something in the trust. There was a case where the Settlor died with no property in the trust and the tax stamp had not been issued. The successor Trustee argued that the stamp should be issued to the trust but ATF said it was not a trust since there was no property in it. For this reason my lawyer had me put $10 into the trust immediately.

My trust drawn up by a lawyer has schedule A at the end of the document and after all signatures so it is not included or sent to the ATF. I asked and his response was all his trusts are this way and the ATF nor anyone else needs to know what all is on schedule A. I F1 efiled an SBR and paper F4 a can with this trust. So far the SBR stamp is in and waiting on the can.

If your trust mentions a schedule or document it must be submitted with the trust. So the trust should not say any thing about a schedule of items.

All the above are correct. Anyone familiar w Trusts knows that the Trust isn't formed until it's funded. ie: some asset attached via Sch A.
No reason to mention the existance of Schs or any other attachments. Only knowledgable persons who know to request them need access.

And for person who stated that he updates his word .doc, you should also have a notarized hard copy of each change. Any future Civil Action may require it. A lack of CHain of Evidence would be a point that an adversary would seek to exploit.

[ryanr256]

My trust package came with what is called a "Certification of Trust". It's a notarized 3 page summary of my trust. If anyone wants a "copy" of my trust, this is what they get.


And, the certification has no mention of what is owned by the trust.


-Bob

[YugoRPK]

My trust package came with what is called a "Certification of Trust". It's a notarized 3 page summary of my trust. If anyone wants a "copy" of my trust, this is what they get.


And, the certification has no mention of what is owned by the trust.


-Bob

Tried that once. Sent in a copy of the cert with no declaration. ATF kicked it back asking for the entire trust bundle with schedule A and Declaration pages.

[YugoRPK]

And for person who stated that he updates his word .doc, you should also have a notarized hard copy of each change. Any future Civil Action may require it. A lack of CHain of Evidence would be a point that an adversary would seek to exploit.

My trust states that as the trustee I can modify the schedule A at will without notarization. I can add and remove trustees and physical objects from the trusts list of property. If it were a trust that was more traditional (cough , cough ..."real" ) I'd be more concerned with it but isnt so the level of caring isnt there.

[renegade]

I do not keep anything I am not required to keep. So no DLs, no trusts , nada.

I know many FFLs do this, thinking they need to in order to protect themselves, but it is gun store BS, and it is kinda infuriating to deal with even as a dealer I get requests for this.

[ryanr256]

My trust package came with what is called a "Certification of Trust". It's a notarized 3 page summary of my trust. If anyone wants a "copy" of my trust, this is what they get.


And, the certification has no mention of what is owned by the trust.


-Bob

Tried that once. Sent in a copy of the cert with no declaration. ATF kicked it back asking for the entire trust bundle with schedule A and Declaration pages.

Yes, I should have been more clear. The ATF got the whole enchilada. Anyone else gets the Certification of Trust.

-Bob,