Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

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cal
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Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by cal »

I'm a new resident in AZ and I'm looking to set up a NFA trust for some cans/sbr. I saw Wildcat trust for 49 and wondered if anyone has used them yet or maybe some referrals for a good NFA trust guy in my area.
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AlabamaPaul
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AlabamaPaul »

I used Do it Yourself Documents, had it reviewed by a lawyer, and it was gtg...
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by Ken Dowdy »

Remember, the trust you use will have to be valid for your specific state - AZ.
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by XinTX »

AlabamaPaul wrote:I used Do it Yourself Documents, had it reviewed by a lawyer, and it was gtg...
I have one of those as well. Have you filed using it yet? If so, how did it work? Mine has a "Declaration" as well as a "Certificate" of trust. Did you use both, or just one or the other?
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AlabamaPaul »

XinTX wrote:
AlabamaPaul wrote:I used Do it Yourself Documents, had it reviewed by a lawyer, and it was gtg...
I have one of those as well. Have you filed using it yet? If so, how did it work? Mine has a "Declaration" as well as a "Certificate" of trust. Did you use both, or just one or the other?
It has worked fine so far (10 stamps). You submit the Declaration of Trust along with your Schedule A...
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AaronBaker »

I can't give you an unbiased review, because I'm not a customer. I am, however, the owner of the company. I frequent the NFA subforum on one of the major gun forums more than I post here, so I just stumbled across this thread.

Like I said, I can't give you an unbiased review, but I am happy to answer any questions you have.

For a little background: I am a Kentucky-licensed attorney, and I draft gun trusts for clients in Kentucky. It's a fairly big part of my practice, actually. After doing trusts for Kentuckians for a few years, I ran into a lot of people that wanted trusts who were not in Kentucky. I can't practice law in other states, because the practice of law is regulated on a state level. However, that didn't mean that I couldn't offer a "do it yourself" type trust product that didn't involve giving tailored legal advice. And I was just finding that too many people were running into lawyers in other states that wanted an arm and a leg to do an NFA trust, and didn't necessarily have the level of experience that I have.

The trust package that I developed is very simple to use. The trust is the same core document that I use for my clients, set up to be able to be easily filled-in by the customer. The legal language that provides the protections you need is all the same--I just did a little bit to streamline and simplify the paperwork so it would be less daunting to use.

I provide detailed instructions on how to complete the document. It's literally done by filling in the blanks on a fillable PDF document. The only thing I'm not providing is legal advice. (In other words, I usually advise my clients about who they should list on their trust. With this product, you have to make that decision on your own based on some general information, rather than me giving you personalized advice. But if you know which family and friends you trust, and know who you want to leave your NFA items to, there's not much advice I would need to give anyway.)

While it's true that trusts are a creature of state law, most states have developed laws that are nearly identical. (There's a model "Uniform Trust Code" that many states use.) The only state-by-state differences are spelled out in the instructions. If your state allows you to own NFA firearms, this trust is legal for you to use in that state.

When I draft a trust for a client in Kentucky, I charge $200. From my research, that's at the bottom end of pricing to have an attorney consult with you and tailor a trust specifically to your needs. There are other options around the internet where a non-attorney will fill in some blanks for you on a form trust and charge you anywhere from $99 to $199. I only charge $49, because frankly, I wanted to be the least expensive do-it-yourself type trust out there. I don't believe in overcharging people for what they need just because I went to law school and they didn't.

So, what you're getting if you buy a Wildcat Trust package is a proven trust structure that hundreds of people (include myself, personally) have successfully used to register NFA firearms with the ATF. It was drafted by an attorney, and has NFA-specific language (unlike a Quicken Willmaker trust or some other generic trust). And it's very easy to use. Although I can't give you legal advice, I include detailed instructions on how to fill in the (very few) blanks that you have to fill in yourself. And if you run into a snag, e-mail me and I'll do what I can to get you on the right track without specifically advising you on your personal situation.

Like I said, it's not an unbiased review, but if you have questions, feel free to ask away, or just e-mail me from the website (www.wildcattrust.com). I answer all my e-mails as quickly as I can.

Thanks,
Aaron Baker
Owner, Wildcat Trust

P.S. I'm not the type of guy that thinks everyone needs my product. There's a lot of competent NFA attorneys out there, some decent do-it-yourself products available, and some people are just fine owning NFA items as individuals. But I think I've got a pretty good product, and I'm happy to answer questions about it.
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by srs »

Aaron,

Please offer another way of paying other than PayPal. Amazon and Google come to mind.

PayPal has proven that they are evil over and over again since nearly the beginning. In fact, they attempted to steal several thousand dollars from me several years ago and I was only able to recover most of it by refunding to buyers and asking for the buyers to send me a check. All but one did.

I will not use PayPal until they are regulated as a bank, and maybe not then. I recommend that NO ONE else use them either.

Thanks,
Steve
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by XinTX »

srs wrote:Aaron,

Please offer another way of paying other than PayPal. Amazon and Google come to mind.

I will not use PayPal until they are regulated as a bank, and maybe not then. I recommend that NO ONE else use them either.

Thanks,
Steve
Another +1 on that. PayPal has proven to be hostile toward the 2A community. Many moons back I used to use EBay, but stopped when they went exclusively with PayPal. A lot of people in the 2A community won't give them a dime. I'm one of them.

But thanks for responding here.
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AaronBaker »

Thanks for the input, guys! That's very helpful to know.

For the record, although I'm aware that plenty of people have had negative experiences with Paypal (and I've heard plenty of horror stories), it has been a good payment processor for me. Because the business that I'm operating is legal services, as opposed to the direct sales of firearms or firearm accessories, Paypal doesn't have a problem with my business. (And of course, I just have to keep my fingers crossed that they don't screw me over in other ways, like they apparently have other people.)

Nevertheless, I do understand that some people object on principle to using Paypal, since they are so anti-gun as a company. I respect that point of view, and I want to be able to accommodate those people as customers.

I've just finished setting up an account with Square so that I can offer an alternative payment method. (Unfortunately, while both Google and Amazon have payment services, neither allows me to send an invoice to a customer. Square, though, does allow me to send invoices and is a well-established payment service.)

One of the main reasons for me to use Paypal is that it offered simple integration that allowed me to automate the payment and product download process. At this point, I don't know if Square will also allow me to automate that. In the meantime, I'm going to update my website to reflect that anyone who doesn't want to use Paypal can e-mail me directly, and I will send them a Square invoice and then e-mail them the trust package once payment is complete. I am usually able to be very responsive to e-mails, so it should be almost as quick as using the automated download process with Paypal. (I pride myself in responding to customer e-mails as quickly as possible.)

So, if anyone here is interested in a trust, but has been hesitant because Paypal was the only payment option, feel free to shoot me an e-mail at [email protected] and I will be happy to accommodate you using Square instead.

Again, thanks for the feedback. It's extremely helpful to know what your potential customers are thinking.

Aaron Baker
Owner, Wildcat Trust
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AaronBaker »

I've updated the payment page on WildcatTrust.com to include an option to pay using Square. At this time, it's not automated--the link will send an e-mail requesting a Square invoice. That will allow me to send you a Square invoice, and once it's paid, I will e-mail you the trust package. It's a little less automated than the Paypal option, but is a good alternative for anyone who wants to boycott Paypal.

On a side note, whether you're using my trust package or not, the site includes some good step-by-step instructions for using a trust for a paper Form 1, paper Form 4 or eForm Form 1. So if you've got a trust and aren't sure what to do next, check it out.

Thanks,
Aaron
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kokopelli
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by kokopelli »

Thanks for taking the time to post, Aaron!
I'm a Ky resident myself and have been interested in forming a trust for a while now, and I don't trust the 'template' that is being passed around here on a couple local forums.
I'll be ordering your packet today...
Ron
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by kokopelli »

I bought the Wildcat Trust last night, and just downloaded it and filled it out. Quick, simple and very thorough. I compared it to 2 versions of a 'template' that is being passed around on a local forum, and after seeing the Wildcat, I would be extremely worried if I had NFA items on one of those trusts! The template has no specific NFA wording for one, and also includes a section that is unnecessary.

Anyway, Wildcat Trust is the way to go- and I have no relationship/prior knowledge, etc with it or with its creator...
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by Vividia »

I also live in KY. Aaron did my trust, and it now has 5 suppressors on it. LOL he left out how addicting these things are!
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by YugoRPK »

Willmaker 2007. Everything you need. Nothing you don't.

[link removed]
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AaronBaker »

Willmaker 2007. Everything you need. Nothing you don't.
That's a false statement. It is definitely NOT everything you need if you want an NFA-specific trust. And it definitely does contain things you don't need, based on the generic trusts I've examined. (In some cases, that additional language could have disastrous consequences for the rest of your estate when you pass away.)

I understand that some people think they know better than people who spent years in law school and practicing in a specific area of law, but if you want to post a link to pirated generic trust software, please don't do it in a thread specifically asking about my NFA-specific trust product. It's rude.

(It's also illegal, and considering that this forum frowns on people posting questions that could constitute proof of violations of the NFA, I'd be kind of surprised if posting links to pirated software is approved behavior.)

If you, or anyone else, wants to use a generic trust software to make a trust, that's your business. But it's a bad idea to use a generic trust for NFA firearm ownership for several reasons. But if you're going to do it, at least use the updated version. It's only $10. But I guess if you're too cheap to pay $49 for an NFA-specific trust written by an experienced NFA trust lawyer, you're definitely too cheap to pay $10 for a new 2015 version of Quicken Willmaker.

Obviously I'm biased, but I think $49 is cheap insurance to know that you're using an NFA-specific trust with language that's identical to trusts used by hundreds of other people who cared enough about their family's safety and security to pay a lawyer good money to draft a trust. And when tax stamps cost $200 a pop, there's really no good excuse for not making a small investment to make sure your ownership vehicle is the best it can be.

Aaron Baker
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by YugoRPK »

Welcome to silencertalk. Hope your'e not expecting arfcom style policing.
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by doubloon »

Some days it seems close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by bakerjw »

doubloon wrote:Some days it seems close.
Off topic, but who does ArfCom style policing?
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AaronBaker »

Hope your'e not expecting arfcom style policing.
Nope. I'm not actually a member at arfcom, and I'm not expecting any particular policing at all by the mods here. I tend to take the view that grown-ups can police themselves. I'm a pretty active member over at THR, and the environment here has always seemed similar to there: where people have an expectation that everyone will act polite and treat each other with respect.

Like I said, if people want to use a generic trust software, that's their business. It's just off-topic for this thread, which is for first-hand opinions, either positive or negative, about my product. I stand behind my products 100%, and I've never had a dissatisfied customer or client yet. I take customer service very seriously.

Anyone who has questions about my trust product is welcome to ask them here or e-mail me directly at [email protected].

Thanks,
Aaron Baker
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by doubloon »

bakerjw wrote:
doubloon wrote:Some days it seems close.
Off topic, but who does ArfCom style policing?
Not you.

Avatar rules, WTS, WTT ... general google oppression

ETA ... maybe the google rules have been lifted and I'm just not paying attention anymore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by YugoRPK »

AaronBaker wrote:
Hope your'e not expecting arfcom style policing.
Nope. I'm not actually a member at arfcom, and I'm not expecting any particular policing at all by the mods here. I tend to take the view that grown-ups can police themselves. I'm a pretty active member over at THR, and the environment here has always seemed similar to there: where people have an expectation that everyone will act polite and treat each other with respect.

Like I said, if people want to use a generic trust software, that's their business. It's just off-topic for this thread, which is for first-hand opinions, either positive or negative, about my product. I stand behind my products 100%, and I've never had a dissatisfied customer or client yet. I take customer service very seriously.

Anyone who has questions about my trust product is welcome to ask them here or e-mail me directly at [email protected].

Thanks,
Aaron Baker
Aaron
Keep in mind that in a discussion forum things often get discussed in a direction that maybe you don't want them discussed even if its your business and wer'e talking about your service. Invariably some asshole like me will say " hey, theres a better ( arguable ) and cheaper ( yep ) way that that ATF has a solid track history of accepting as good to go. And by the way heres a bootleg copy of the software you need to do it if you don't really care what happens to it after you die. After all the trust route is pretty much a scam anyway" Not everyone feels that way but you know some of us are pretty honest with ourselves.

Don't take it personally. Its a discussion forum. Things get discussed.
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AaronBaker »

Keep in mind that in a discussion forum things often get discussed in a direction that maybe you don't want them discussed
Oh, I'm well aware that it happens that way.

But in my view, jumping into this thread with the comments you've made is similar to a guy posting a thread asking, "What do people think of the Glock 26? I'm thinking of buying one." and someone else posting, "All Glocks suck! The only pistol you'll ever need is a 1911. Why would you get a 9mm when only a .45 can put a man down?"

It happens, but that doesn't make it on-topic for a thread or a respectful thing to do.

But since we're discussing:
hey, theres a better ( arguable ) and cheaper ( yep ) way that that ATF has a solid track history of accepting as good to go. And by the way heres a bootleg copy of the software you need to do it if you don't really care what happens to it after you die. After all the trust route is pretty much a scam anyway" Not everyone feels that way but you know some of us are pretty honest with ourselves.
Cheaper? Yes. I can't argue with you that stealing intellectual property is cheaper than paying the person who created it. Stealing firearms is also cheaper than buying them. That doesn't make it legal or morally right. But you can also buy Quicken Willmaker cheaper than a Wildcat Trust, so your other points are more important.

How is it arguably better? I mean, you did say, "Everything you need. Nothing you don't." How about you back up these statements with some analysis?

The ATF does have a track record of accepting generic template trusts. As long as you haven't done something glaringly obvious like making yourself the beneficiary of your own trust, they don't know enough about your trust and the people involved in it to know whether anything is wrong.

The problem is, it isn't just about not caring about what happens to the trust property after you die. Someone has to be in possession of those NFA firearms. Unless you're not naming any of your friends or loved ones on your trust (in which case, who are you naming?), then there's an issue of caring about whether you're creating serious legal problems for your family or loved ones after you die.

Beyond that, there's potential problems while you're still alive. Does your trust have provisions to automatically disqualify trustees who become prohibited persons? Not if you used a generic trust template. So what happens if one of your trustees becomes a felon? (You might not even know. He gets his third DUI and takes a probated felony sentence and is too embarrassed to tell anyone.) Okay, so you figure it out and stop letting him possess the firearms. Problem solved, right? Nope. If he's a trustee, then according to the ATF's view (and a fair reading of relevant case law), he has the ability to exercise dominion and control over the property, and is thereby in constructive possession of all your trust property. Maybe you don't care about your friend, and if he goes to jail for that, fine, but you can bet the ATF is going to seize your NFA firearms too if it becomes a court case.

Look, I understand that these potential issues are statistically unlikely for most people. There's lots of owners of NFA firearms and the ATF isn't keeping an eye on us all. But they're not impossible. I personally feel better knowing that I'm protected against those eventualities.

At the end of the day, I look at it like this: I can't blame anyone who doesn't want to pay $500 or more to an attorney to draft an NFA trust for them. (Heck, I'm a lawyer and everyone knows we're rich, but that's still a lot of money to me.) When I draft trusts as an attorney for a client, I charge a $200 flat fee. That covers me consulting personally with the client and helping them decide the best structure for their trust, and then drafting the trust for them. That also includes answering lots of NFA-related questions. Sure, they can ask those same questions on an internet forum for free, but some people like knowing that when they ask their attorney something ("Hey, do I have to engrave my lower receiver when I register it as an SBR? What are the requirements?"), they're getting the correct answer from someone who has studied the law. (It's not really so much about whether the answer is right, but whether they can personally have confidence that the answer is right.) Then I offer a lifetime of support for that trust. As long as I'm around, they can come to me to get an amendment drafted for that trust, and I do that for no additional charge.

For my Wildcat Trust packages, it's a lot cheaper. $49. I still am happy to answer all sorts of NFA-related questions, because I like talking about that stuff and I want to help people. You don't get the personal advice about who to list on your trust, but you get the exact same legal protections with the legal language in the trust. (I can provide all the consultation I want as long as I'm not giving legal advice outside Kentucky.) It's NFA-specific. And frankly, it's probably faster and easier than installing Quicken Willmaker. You download the documents, read through the short instructions, and then type some information into some fill-in PDFs. So no worrying about whether it's compatible with your version of Windows or if you have the right drivers, and then having to figure out how to get the software to make a trust (as opposed to a will or whatever else it does).

Whether you're stealing the software or actually paying the $10 for it, it isn't much more expensive to get an NFA-specific trust. $49 is 1/4 of the cost of a tax stamp. It's a fraction of the cost of a good suppressor. I spent more on Magpul furniture for my Form 1 short-barreled shotgun than the Wildcat Trust costs. I really stand behind the idea that it's inexpensive peace of mind.

Finally, I'm interested in this statement you made:
After all the trust route is pretty much a scam anyway
What do you mean? I'm guessing that you mean that the ATF probably wasn't expecting people to use trusts so widely for NFA ownership purposes, and that the avoidance of fingerprints, photographs and CLEO signoff is an aspect that they (or Congress) never considered when drafting the NFA.

That's all probably true. But I don't think that makes trusts a "scam" or even a "loophole." Laws are laws. They're never written perfectly, and we all just have to work within the confines and restrictions that are placed on us. If the ATF and Congress were to come to their senses and take suppressors and short-barreled firearms out of the NFA, two things would happen: 1) I'd be thrilled, and 2) I'd lose a lot of business. But until then, trusts are an extremely useful tool for NFA stamp collecting gun nuts like me, and I'm happy to be able to use my professional talents to help other people like me.

Aaron
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by usmcvet0331 »

doubloon wrote:
bakerjw wrote:
doubloon wrote:Some days it seems close.
Off topic, but who does ArfCom style policing?
Not you.

Avatar rules, WTS, WTT ... general google oppression

ETA ... maybe the google rules have been lifted and I'm just not paying attention anymore
I don't think they have been lifted.

Aaron. I'm going to buy your product. I have a Trust currently that I used to buy two SBR's and would rather a specific NFA Trust. Any issues updating my Trust this way?
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Re: Any Wildcat trust 49$ reviews/opinions….

Post by AaronBaker »

I've already responded to usmcvet0331 by e-mail, but for anyone else who may be interested, I wanted to post this...

If you already have a generic trust, but would like the peace of mind that comes with using a trust with NFA-specific language, I've created a special Wildcat Trust package just for you. This package allows you to do what's called a "restatement." That's basically changing all of the wording of your trust without having to create a new trust. (A new trust would mean having to transfer all of your NFA firearms and pay for new tax stamps. With a restatement, you're keeping your old trust but changing the wording.) You can also use this opportunity to change trustees or beneficiaries if you want. The only thing that MUST stay the same is the name of your trust.

For those who are interested, here's the link: http://www.wildcattrust.com/?page_id=219

If anyone has questions about either the original or restatement versions of the Wildcat Trust package, you're welcome to ask here, but it's probably faster to reach me by e-mail at [email protected].

Thanks,
Aaron
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